0:00
difference in the average earnings including overtime of the women and many
0:05
in any given population and according to official data back in 2016 April 2016
0:14
the gender pay gap for median earnings was nine point four percent for
0:19
full-time employees so in effect men were earning nine point
0:24
four percent mall and then female full-time employees when it came to
0:29
part-time workers it was the other way around women were earning 6% more than
0:36
part-time males and when you add both the full time and the part-time workers together you end up with women and
0:44
earning 18 percent less than their male counterparts but of course only fair to
0:53
point out that other gender pay gaps out there so when it comes to how much a
1:02
boys and girls get in terms of pocket money according to research by the
1:10
Halifax and on average boys in the UK receive 13% more in weekly pocket money
1:17
than girls while parents give boys aged between 8 and 15 an average of 6 pounds
1:24
and 93 a week and they give girls 6 pound 16 and why is there a gap there
1:32
well according to research it may be because boys are slightly more likely to
1:37
complain and ask for more compared to girls so whilst 44% of boys said they
1:42
were prepared to ask for more only 39 percent of girls are going to do
1:48
similarly similarly when it comes to how
1:54
much men and women are prepared to pay for goods and services again there's a
1:59
gap so the next research has been carried out in the States and it looked
2:05
to what men and women pay for essentially identical products but which are marketed in them separately so
2:11
princes we found that and girls baby clothes cost more than those for boys shirts for girls can cost
2:18
13% more and toys marketed as girls cost 11% more than those the boys even if
2:25
they were exactly the same toys in different colors the promise difference covers out that carries over into
2:32
adulthood where women shirt surprise 15% more than men's shirts and women's
2:38
shampoo products cost 48 percent more than products marketed to men similarly
2:44
women pay 56 percent more for personal care products even when the ingredients
2:50
are similar and when it comes to old age support and rages for women are 15% more
2:56
than those for men and walking-sticks can cost 12% more the study found that
3:02
when averaged across a lifetime women are paying 57 percent more for
3:08
comparable products and similar studies carried out in the UK have found
3:14
differences again both in terms of what men and women pay so for instance women
3:20
tend to pay more for jeans or things such as raises so while there are
3:25
various pay gaps and today we're going to be focusing on the difference in earnings and between men and women and
3:33
I'll now pass on to Emma and Hugh to talk about their experiences thanks very
3:47
much thank you thank you very much Charles very interesting to know that
3:52
I'm earning less but paying more for things I've firm for those of you who've
4:00
not heard me I'm a partner and ahead of them employment my specialist area is employment law and I work in a firm in
4:07
Wales it's gender pay gap is something I've been interested in quite a long
4:13
time for lots of equal pay cases and gender pay and equal pay are very
4:20
separate things but obviously they're interlinked because they are all about the
4:25
difference between the way that men and women are paid light Charles I've put in
4:30
some opening stats in the first slide so again that headline figure of 18.1%
4:37
which was the difference according to the Office of National Statistics last
4:42
year now that figure has come down significantly since the ONS first
4:47
started to collate this information they started in 1977 where they stat was
4:54
between 7% so there is clear movement there one of the very interesting things though is that that headline figure
5:00
doesn't tell the whole story and there is huge variation according to occupational group and age last summer
5:09
there was a report from the Institute for Fiscal Studies and they looked at the figure for mothers so women who
5:15
leave the workplace and then take some time out and return and actually the
5:23
gender pay gap for that group of people goes up to 33% so that it are much much
5:31
more obvious differential and then an
5:36
interesting stat that I came across last summer as well another piece of research was that this whole idea of whether it
5:43
is about men and women not asking there was a study that was done in Australia
5:48
by the caste Business School where they see such examine whether it was because women weren't asking to pay rises in the
5:55
same way as men and in their research was that in light for light cases women
6:01
were 25% less likely to be given a pay rise than men in response to an Oscar
6:06
they've actually made for me that statistic kind of demonstrates that this is a hugely complex area so what we have
6:15
now is the government wanting to advance the cause around gender pay gap cut
6:21
equal pay legislation since 1975 so for a long long time and yet we still have a
6:27
very noticeable gender pay gap so what is happening is within the Equality Act
6:34
2010 there was a power put in that would
6:39
enable regulations to be made that would affect private and third sector employers and larger ones with 250 plus
6:46
employees to publish gender pay info that provision was brought into force
6:52
and we now have the final version of the draft regulations that will come into force very soon on the 6th of April this
6:59
year employers who fall into the category of having more than 250 employees will have
7:07
to publish their gender pay gap regulation information within 12 months
7:12
of the regulations coming into force so by the 5th of April 2018 there is also a
7:20
very similar obligation on public sector bodies again it's for those larger
7:25
public sector bodies and those with 250 plus employees it only applies in
7:31
England though not Scotland and Wales and there's a slight difference to those regulations there's a difference in
7:37
relation to the date and there's an additional reporting GT which is all
7:43
connected to the public sector equality Duty and the reporting obligations around those but the real focus from
7:50
each day is on the private and third sector the voluntary sector employees lawyers what has to be published is six
8:00
types of information the mean gender pay gap to the overall organization the
8:07
median agenda pay gap and the difference between those of course is the mean is the is what I would think of as an
8:13
average being that you add everything up and then divide it by the number but
8:19
also the median which is the midpoint it's actually the median which is used
8:24
by the Office of National Statistics because they think it is a more accurate
8:30
way of doing it so that you get rid of the very lowest and the very highest
8:35
which can skew the information but actually these are these regulations required both of those to be produced
8:42
then there's a requirement to look at something called bonus gender pay
8:48
information so specifically looking at bonus pay rather than general pay and
8:55
again publishing the mean and the median of bonus gender pay gap around bonuses
9:00
there's also an obligation to look at the proportion of male and female employees in your workforce that are
9:07
receiving bonus payments so if you have more men receiving bonuses and obviously that will be a positive percentage that
9:15
you would need to report on plus then there's an attempt to look at your overall pay range so what you do is you
9:23
split your males and females up into quartiles and I'll show you a slide that
9:31
actually gives a bit more detail around that and what this actually means in
9:37
order to understand and start being able to do all of these calculations it's
9:42
really important to understand sort of basic principles of when the Pay information is coming in when you have
9:51
to do the pay information and it basically works on a snapshot principle for the gender pay gap so it's the idea
9:58
of this snapshot date of a fifth of April in each year and you use that date to look at your pay that you're paying
10:05
on that date every year the regulations
10:11
use the concept of a relevant pay period and what that means is if you are an
10:17
employer that pays monthly then it is the month's pay that includes whether
10:24
month includes the fifth of April it is that pay period that you factor in for
10:29
your gender pay information if you're an employer that pays weekly then it is the week in which the fifth of April Fool's
10:36
and if you are looking at for weekly pay
10:41
then it again is that four week period where the fifth of April falls into that
10:46
period to that relevant pay period for your gender pay your hourly rate pay
10:52
though many of the bonuses what you have to do is factor in your bonuses for the
10:57
preceding 12 months up to the 5th of April each year so for the first year of reporting we're
11:04
actually looking at the 12 months going back to the 6th of April 2016 and you
11:11
should be too late in all of that bonus information up to the 5th of April 2017
11:23
in order to understand who is captured by the obligation in the gender pay
11:28
regulations you need to do a sum and calculate how many employees that you've got so the threshold figure is 250 and
11:37
you look at that on your snapshot date so it's the 5th of April every year if
11:44
you're part of a group structure then you treat each subsidiary company within the group quite separately the
11:52
definition of employee for the purpose of these regulations is wider than
11:57
employee under the employment rights Act it's the same definition that's used in
12:03
the Equality Act which is an extended definition so it includes anyone who's
12:08
actually employed under a contract of service so what we would think of as a normal employee but also includes
12:14
apprentices and anybody that is employed on a contract to do work personally so
12:21
that would capture freelance contractors that you might have engaged for you so
12:27
when you're doing your numbers and working out who your 250 are then you
12:33
have contractors freelance individuals who work on a basis of a single contract
12:40
for an individual they will be captured casual workers would very likely to be
12:46
included if they are employed with you on the 5th of April but obviously if
12:52
they're not employed with you on the 5th of April that they are the sort of employees that come and go then that
12:58
they would not necessarily count towards your 254 agency workers if they are not
13:06
employed directly by you but employed by the agency then they are going to be
13:11
captured by the agencies figures rather than you have to do them then there's a very specific provision
13:18
for partners of law firms well firms they are definitely excluded somebody
13:26
agencies ask the question would it include non-executive directors very
13:31
potentially it would if they are employed under a contract to personally do work there's also a contact in the
13:42
gender regulations that covers if
13:48
there's a provision around who is counted and whether they are receiving
13:54
full pay or not when the first regulations came out everything such as
14:01
maternity pay will also be included in the definition of pay and so part of the feedback on those draft regulations was
14:08
well this is going to skew the figures because if you've got a woman who's off on maternity we're receiving such a
14:14
maternity pay obviously she's going to be earning less than full pay and therefore that is going to demonstrate a
14:21
gender pay gap so the revised regulations recognize that you may have
14:26
employees who are absent on leave and receiving less than full pay and that this could skew the overall picture so
14:33
the new regulation had a definition of full pay relevant employees this is any
14:39
employees who are on leave during the relevant pay period so that period of
14:44
pay whether it's monthly weekly for weekly whatever that includes the 5th of
14:49
April and who are not during that period in receipt of full pay the regulations
14:55
specifically refer to annual leave sick leave family leave from maternity leave paternity leave parental leave all of
15:01
those types of family leaves plus it also refers to special leaves or other types of sabbatical leaves that you
15:07
might include the full pay relevant employees it's important to remember are
15:13
only excluded for when you're calculating your average hourly rates so
15:19
when you're looking at your mean and median comparison with your hourly rates and your quartile provision they're not
15:25
excluded when you're counting your 206 the threshold and they're not included in relation to bonus pay so looking at
15:37
some of the really important definitions and understanding what we actually have to count towards pay regulations very
15:45
clear pay includes basic pays includes all kinds of allowances so if somebody's
15:50
getting paid an ounce because they do extra things additional duties that will count any kind of London wasting
15:59
geographical weighting that will count to get a car allowance that will count a
16:04
market forces factor premium or any kind of equipment allowance that counts of
16:09
pay pay for piecework we'll also can but a usually will be either also you like
16:15
to have somebody on basic pay or getting piece work paid pay for leave as long as
16:21
it's full pay and then any kind of shift premium pay it's a distinction here
16:26
because overtime pay is absolutely not included but pay for working at
16:34
different times of work so we can shift premium or an active hours premium that
16:40
would count excluded then is overtime pay expenses the value of any salary
16:47
sacrifice schemes which does seem potentially somewhat harsh because if these are schemes that employees are
16:54
choosing to be part of actually you have no control over whether it's men or
17:00
women that are choosing to be part of those schemes but you have to somebody as possible salary sacrifice scheme then
17:06
it is only there that the pay that remains that that is counted any
17:12
benefits in kind redundancy pay termination pay all of that sort of pay
17:17
is excluded and what you're working on is that is gross pay so before any deductions are made bonus pay is defined
17:27
and bonus pay includes payments that relate to profit sharing productivity
17:33
performance incentive or Commission and it's whatever form in which is paid so
17:38
it might actually be hard cash might be VAT so it might be something to do with
17:43
shares again calculated before any deductions are made from that and with
17:50
bonuses what you're concerned about is not when not the period to which the
17:56
bonus is attributable but the time that the employee actually receives the
18:05
benefit of the bonus at the time the bonus is actually paid I think somebody
18:10
did ask do you include bonuses for those that have left the business no you
18:17
definitely don't and and should the bonus be full-time equivalent no it
18:22
shouldn't you look at the actual amount of the bonus so I'm picking up some
18:27
questions as they come along if they're in the right place but we'll pick up all the questions later I'm sure the first
18:34
thing that you have to do when you're coming to do your calculations is calculate the gross hourly rate of pay
18:41
for your mail and your female employees and the regulations set out six steps of
18:47
what you have to do that would it be helpful to actually do that basically the first thing they say you do is
18:53
identify all the payments that the individuals have received in the
18:58
relevant pay period so you factor in everything first of all then you take
19:04
away anything that is not pay you then prorate any bonus pay now just a little
19:12
bit of time explaining this if you pay bonuses during that reference period
19:19
they get captured in the gross hourly rate of pay if you don't pay your
19:24
bonuses around about April time then you don't have to worry about them for your gross hourly rate of pay it's only if
19:32
they get paid in your April relevant pay period but to reflect the fact that you
19:37
know you're counting a potentially whole annual bonus and that will skew the figures compared to companies that don't
19:44
pay their bonuses at that time of year you are allowed to prorate the bonus pay
19:50
so you're allowed to only take into account twelve of the bonus figure when you're doing your growth at a rate
19:56
of pay calculations so once you've worked out what you're including into
20:02
your number you add it all together you get the total pay of the individuals for
20:08
that relevant pay period you're then meant to divide it out so
20:13
you get to a weekly amount and the regulations very helpfully tell us how
20:19
we are meant to treat a month and how we're meant to treat a year in order that we're all working from the same
20:24
numbers we're factoring in you know February having 28 days whereas April
20:30
has 30 and other months have more days once you've got your weekly amount you
20:37
then divide by the number of working hours in a week and there are some
20:43
specific provisions about working hours as I said previously all overtime is
20:50
excluded so if somebody is doing overtime whether it's paid or unpaid you
20:55
are not meant to factor that in at all for a normal weekly working hour
21:00
employee you are supposed to base this on the number of hours that is stated in
21:06
their contract and employment on the snapshot date so it's the number of hours for the 5th of April each year if
21:14
it's somebody who doesn't have weekly working hours then what you're required to do is an averaging process very
21:21
similar to what we're used to in the idea of the employment rights act and averaging out pay over the last 12 weeks
21:27
up to the date of the relevant pay period but excluding people who
21:35
excluding any weeks when somebody hasn't worked at all so for some of your casual employees you might be if you've got
21:42
bank employees who might work one week but then not the next potentially you'll be averaging over quite a significant
21:48
period of time because you need to find 12 weeks that they have actually received pay if you can't find 12 weeks
21:55
where they've received pay then you can use the best number of weeks that you can have going to the actual
22:03
calculations I have included in the slides exactly what the calculations are so
22:11
that you can see these I'm not necessarily going to talk through all of them because they get quite repetitive but once you've worked out your gross
22:19
hourly pay you then have to work out the average of it you then work out the
22:25
average for men at the average for women and you express that as a percentage so
22:30
if you look at the bits in italics on bottom of this slide this explains that
22:35
an employer is a mean hourly rate of pay for all males full pay equivalent
22:41
employees are fifteen and twenty five this employer also has pays women slightly less when looking at the mean
22:47
rate of thirteen point forty two so once you convert that into a percentage it's
22:53
a twelve percent mean gender pay gap you do exactly the same thing then for the
22:59
median hourly pay the same percentage calculation and here we have somebody
23:06
who's when they've worked out their median hourly rate to pay men are getting 16 pounds women are getting 13
23:12
point 50 means that the overall gender pay gap there is 15.6 percent we then do
23:20
the same for bonuses and it's again mean
23:26
and median I think somebody did ask canoeing do you include those that have
23:32
left the business since the last bonus pay date levers can be excluded just to
23:37
answer that question so you're only having two even though you might be calculating bonuses for the whole year
23:44
you only have to do the calculations for the people who are still there on the 5th of April you do the mean and then
23:53
the median you also then do the proportions receiving bonus pay so that
24:01
this is a symbol over the 12 months up to the snapshot date you work out the
24:06
number of emails that have received a bonus and what percentage of the overall mail work for site is number of females
24:12
that are receiving a bonus and what percentage of the overall work for that is and then work those out so you get to
24:18
percentages so in this case an employer has 302 male employees 255 had a bonus
24:28
whereas the 258 of the 258 employees are new 215 of received bonus so there's a
24:35
slight differential in the percentages there eighty four point four percent of male employees have boners compared to
24:41
eighty three point three percent then the proxy one of the most interesting
24:51
calculations that you have to do is to split your employees into quartiles it
24:58
wasn't clear at all in the first draft of the regulations exactly what this meant but we now do know what you're
25:04
doing is you're splitting your employees into four quartiles based on the number
25:10
of employees so in the example we've got 322 full pay relevant employees you
25:17
divide 320 two by four so you end up each of your quartiles is going to have
25:22
a quarter of the 322 so it's going to be right about eighty eighty one as you'll
25:28
see on the next slide you then rank your employees based on the gross hourly rate
25:34
of pay and work out for the lowest paid ones they fall into the first quarter or
25:40
in your lowest quartile the next quarter going to your your middle your next
25:47
quartile up and then your next quarter next quartile you can have some difficulties if you've got people that
25:53
are paid the same and where they cross those boundaries you're meant to resolve that by making
26:00
sure you do that in a gender balanced way and then what you come out with is you look at the number of male and
26:05
female employees bizarre in each of the pay ends and just to show you what that
26:11
looks like what you don't have to do is say what the pay bands are a tool you don't have to say what the range of pay
26:18
is for your quartiles you simply refer to them as the lower lower middle upper middle and upper quartile but in this
26:25
example of those 332 the 81 lowest paid
26:30
employees 48 men and 33 a female so actually we've got
26:35
so gender pay gap there where we've got more lowest-paid people in this
26:40
organization a male compared with female when we jumped however to the upper quartile we can see that there's 80
26:47
employees in the upper quartile 58 a male and 22 a female so the decision is
26:54
reversed quite considerably that although the lowest paid employees in
26:59
this organization of men actually the highest paid employees in this organization are predominantly men as
27:05
well in terms of when and how this has
27:12
to be done we have to do it within 12 months so within 12 months of the
27:18
snapshot date each year you have to publish the information on your website
27:23
in the UK in a manner accessible to all employees and the public which
27:28
potentially means that it's searchable so it must be something that's quite easy to find on your website and you
27:35
have to put on that that information has to remain there for at least three years so you will in through your time have
27:42
three years worth of data there's also have a going to be a government website we haven't yet seen
27:48
it it's not been launched as yet which we understand is going to have a league table type approach so that all
27:55
companies will report and they'll somehow you'll be seen somewhere in that table as to how you can be compared and
28:03
benchmarked against other companies when you publish you also have to accompany the statistics by a signed statement of
28:11
truth and that has to be signed by somebody both senior in your organisation and the regulations going
28:16
to let us detail that who that is the big question for me is for so what
28:23
what is the enforcement mechanism what what are the consequences if you don't do it it is a name and shame game only
28:31
there is absolutely no financial penalty that can befall your organization if you
28:36
do not publish the information there is some suggestion that the EHR see could
28:44
use the information to take enforcement action against you but that's certainly not the message
28:50
that's coming out of the HRC and they're not suggesting that that is part of what
28:55
they are thinking of doing at all there's also the possibility that the
29:01
information could be used by employees to pursue employment tribunal claims around sex discrimination equal pay but
29:09
really what the statistics produce are something that is very difficult to see
29:15
how that is helpful to a particular individual who wants to pursue a claim and I would query whether or not they're
29:21
even enough to shift the burden of proof what I think they could be the effect of
29:27
that though could be that employees will be more aware of your gender pay situation so if they are concerned about
29:34
their pay then the fact that you're publishing might encourage them to ask some more questions but I mean I've
29:41
delivered this seminar to a number of different HR people over the last year
29:47
and lots of them have a are not sure yet whether they're going to publish there
29:56
has been some very helpful latest guidance that come out in the recent in recent weeks published jointly with the
30:03
government equalities office and have very good step by step guide to complying with the regulations also has
30:10
some complex some clarity around some of the complex area so one of the questions was kind of gender identity which which
30:17
category do people fall in and all that they say about us is that you must treat
30:22
people sensitively it also goes on to explain a little bit about the difference between gender pay gap and
30:28
equal pay I'm noting that they are very different things Equal Pay is about people who are
30:33
working at the same level comparing their pay whereas gender pay is about people who are lumped in together across
30:43
the whole organization but it also goes on to consider some of the causes of the
30:48
gender pay gap and actually tries to encourage employers to be very proactive and adopt a plan to take steps to reduce
30:55
the gender pay gap going forward final thoughts
31:00
from me before we get answer questions check with your HR system can cope do
31:08
your figures as soon as possible don't be left guessing you don't have to publish them straightaway but I think if
31:14
you have an idea of what your figures are likely to look through you can think about this internally as an organization
31:21
and what you want how best to present them one of the things you might also
31:26
look into is whether you can present the historical position so you can actually show that being some improvement in your
31:33
organization everybody is saying you need to put a narrative around the figures so your HR professionals and
31:42
also your marketing professionals advance want to think very carefully about how you position this figure this
31:48
figures where that fits in into what you the messages you want to say about your
31:53
organization if you can see any obvious equal pay issues then now you've got
31:58
trying to fix them before you have to publish I'm not sure though that just doing this exercise really does help you
32:05
identify the equal pay issues the way you've got like for like who are not receiving the same level of pay but for
32:12
often you tend to know about those anyway and then should you consider longer-term solutions and adopt an
32:19
action plan you know that's something for you as organizations but to think
32:26
about and whether it's you know how it how important this is for that for the business the AEF guidance talks about
32:32
there being very clear economic benefits to being diverse and to looking at these
32:38
things positively that's me as a lawyer giving my perspective and telling you
32:44
about how the regulations work what we thought would be very helpful is to actually give an HR directors
32:49
perspective and find out what Adrian thinks that at all so I'm going to ask
32:55
gage in a couple of questions which is amply just explain to begin with Adrian
33:01
and something about opus international consulting limited and what you do what
33:07
employees you have yes certainly we are a civil structural traffic and transportation
33:13
transportation engineering consultancy we've got approximately 500 UK staff
33:20
operating over 12 locations so essentially we provide consulting design
33:26
information on those types of projects and you've begun to look at whether or
33:32
not you can collect the information and do the calculations how easy have you found that process the proposals
33:40
themselves seem quite complex and there's actually quite a lot of detail to get into and understand but having
33:48
said that I can understand why why it's been written the way it has we've we've
33:54
been able to report on this fairly easily once we've fully understood the requirements and we've established our
34:01
starting position fairly easily and and
34:07
where are you in your thinking about whether you event publish we've not reached a final decision on that but the
34:14
current thinking is that we are we're likely to publish we want to be
34:20
transparent and open with our with our own staff and also externally we think
34:27
it's important to do that final decision yet to be taken but my feeling is we would be likely to publish and obviously
34:35
if you are going to publish will do you're not thinking of just publishing the stats as a sort of bold without any
34:42
explanation to sitting behind them what what through thoughts are you having
34:47
around the narrative we absolutely will need a narrative as a as an engineering
34:54
company we're already aware that we need to attract more females into engineering
35:00
so we have an imbalance in terms of the number of females in our business versus
35:06
the number of males we have 26 percent of our workforce of female and where
35:12
we're fairly active in trying to address that and for that reason we need to
35:18
really put a good narrative alongside the figures and we perhaps have to educate our own
35:26
staff if they view this information around what the gender pay gap is actually reporting and then it isn't for
35:34
example the same as an equal pay gap it's a really important consideration and we need to give some some real
35:41
thought to how we convey the information
35:46
and thank you very much a dream and we're opened questions now if anybody's
35:53
got any eyes Charles you'll learn you'll filled those and put them yes sure yes
35:59
thanks very much Cameron Adrian your very interesting
36:05
presentations I think one of the questions that I noticed was around what
36:14
happens if people receive a bonus we shade in sacrifice into a pension scheme
36:19
how is that question dealt that issue dealt with I think you have to count the
36:28
bonus I've I've just been looking at what the 8's guidance says about it the
36:36
regulations don't deal with it directly but the starting point is how the what's
36:43
on the pay slip and so you start with if pay is then being deducted into pension
36:50
I think that means that the bonus would count but I think I think that that's an
36:55
excellent question that I thought oh I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to answer that I think that's detail but I would my instinctive reaction is is to
37:02
take bonus count in that even if it's waved into pension scheme another
37:08
question was around company cars and also the option of getting a car
37:15
allowance so would you how would you look at company cars as part of the
37:20
gender pay gap reporting and how would you do with those --is-- instances where people have opted for an hour an hour
37:27
for an allowance rather than for a car itself and the regulations are very very clear
37:35
the if you are paying a car allowance that is factored into pay but if you are
37:41
if other people are taking company cars then you exclude that because it's a benefit in kind so I think the way that
37:48
you would address that is explaining that in your narrative if that is
37:55
creating any kind of gender pay queueing effect I mean whether or not it's
38:02
creating a skewing effect will depend on the proportion of men and women that are doing one or the other if you've got all
38:09
women taking allowances and all men taking the company cars that actually might seem like ended up having a very
38:15
positive effect another question was around bonuses and what happens if those
38:23
parts of that bonus is paid in share options or restricted shares how would
38:28
you value that in terms of gender pay gap reporting would you kind of value
38:36
realized of the year or the grant value and again the regulations aren't very
38:43
clear as to what to do but yes that fact is was I I would agree but
38:49
that's it it's the point in which it's paid so what if you are so for example
38:55
if you're assuring chopin's do they have a particular value if you're referring options in shares where you assume that
39:01
they have a particular market value which has lasted what the the tax
39:06
position will be based on so it's that market value at the time of issue all
39:11
the time of grant if it's a share option so the shares will be at vesting then yes so what happens and if it wasn't
39:20
part of the bonus scheme you just got shares separately with that then the part of pain well now that's a very good
39:28
question if the regulations aren't clear
39:36
their not excluded from pay but it is only bonus pay but it where securities
39:45
so paying in the form of securities includes chairs so I mean if it wasn't
39:53
if it was a regular part of somebody's remuneration package that was just as a
39:59
matter of course I think it would be excluded from hey and letter with a
40:04
bonus relationship to it well there'll
40:11
be opportunities for you to check this at happily two-stage MO we can add a
40:16
mainly in the webinar as appropriate and then the question was around what
40:23
happens to companies that are employing people and overseas so either they've
40:28
got British people working overseas or they've got people who are from overseas
40:34
working in the UK and were those people dealt with I am in the original draft of
40:41
the regulations there was a very specific provision to say that it with UK based employees but that has
40:47
disappeared which means that the current
40:52
commentators are thinking a twink leading me that if an employee could
40:58
bring a claim under the Equality Act notwithstanding that they're based overseas they will count towards the 250
41:07
threshold and they will count in terms of their numbers you need to include
41:13
them in the pay information right we've
41:20
got a few questions around bonuses for instance just to clarify if an annual
41:26
bonus is paid in December each year and this chap so what and was wondering
41:31
whether it's rising think that only one twelfth of that bonus is taken into account for calculation purposes or is
41:38
it across the year no idiot this is exactly that this is it's a
41:43
bizarre kind of odd bit about the regulations unless you pay your bonuses
41:49
around April so the pay period that includes the fifth of April you do not
41:56
have to put your bonus pay into your average pay calculation only if you pay
42:04
your bonuses in April that you can't bonus pay into that calculation so a very sensible way of avoiding having to
42:10
do that would be to make sure you don't pay your bonuses in April so what
42:17
happens if you don't if you pay your bonuses in November then how would you tell that you would calculate it over
42:22
the year yeah your your average gender your average hourly rate of pay you can
42:29
ignore bonuses for that purpose but when you look at your bonus pay it your bonus
42:35
pay is bonuses that are paid in the twelve months preceding the 5th of April so if you've paid your bonuses in
42:43
December 2016 it's that bonus pay that will count that you'll need to report on by the 5th of
42:50
April 2018 and if that query is what hat
42:56
is reinstating for Ireland from June to pick out reporting as a very simple many
43:02
of our members we're working in Ireland and some will be based in the Republic
43:08
and others will be based in Northern Ireland and what types of surveys specifically also covers as you know
43:14
this you are in to earn people new international workers as well yeah I mean it's it's the UK come from the
43:21
company that is in the UK that is captured by the regulation so any any
43:28
subsidy companies there's a base in southern ireland will not be captured by
43:35
the regulations because they're outside of the UK legislation but if you've got
43:40
somebody who is seconded to go and work out there then obviously they will count
43:46
if they have a contract with a UK company um another query that some
43:53
organizations allow their employees to convert their bonus into company shares is if counted in the bonus calculation
44:01
civilly be excluded um shares any bonus
44:06
that is paid whether it's through the form of shares or through the form of cash
44:11
has to be counted and then you have that issue about how you actually value the
44:17
shares it's easier actually you're converting a cash bonus into shares
44:22
because you know what the value of the cash bonus is right another we're getting quite a lot of these questions
44:28
what I know that's it what is it that you've talked about the definition
44:33
subsidiary what it so you've talked about subsidiaries what is the definition of a subsidiary and how would
44:40
that differ from the PA ye tax reference
44:45
what I mean by subsidiary is a coop as a Companies Act subsidiary so one of the
44:53
complications I think I've got one client who they have a very complex
45:00
payroll arrangement so parent company has an 250 plus employees but if one of
45:09
the subsidiary company so were securing UK something else only has 20 employees
45:17
then that company can be excluded but parent company would still have to factor it in for their employees so you
45:26
need to know if you've got a complex group structure exactly which individuals are employed by which group
45:33
company it's got the tax payroll reference and who actually manages the
45:38
payroll is not part of the consideration at all so we just had another question
45:45
that out adding sits where they've got and three offices in Scotland Wales and
45:51
Northern Ireland each with fewer than ten employees presumably there it would be case
45:57
aggregating that information together to get the total numbers but let me just go
46:04
back to that question sorry so it was are they all they're based in
46:11
the different places but are they employed by the same company yes there
46:16
are three small offices yes so treat small offices each with
46:21
they would be included providing overall so the English office have 250
46:31
altogether yes thank you thank you for clarifying the vast majority of employer
46:37
in England and let the Scottish wealth and organising offices are obstructed
46:43
there is a structure so it is actually a separate company so there's um whatever
46:48
the company is Wales Limited then the ten or less than ten will be included so
46:56
yeah so you're all the same organization now is this a private sector and for
47:03
voluntary sector organisation as long as it's a private sector or voluntary sector organisation that is the case
47:08
slightly more complex if it's a public authority because of the way the public sector regulations being brought in
47:15
they're not necessary capturing Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland in the public
47:21
sector another question was around the
47:27
length that you'd be really expected to go to to kind of identify consultants on
47:34
the payroll yeah that's a really good question actually - that something I should have mentioned which is where
47:40
you've got consultants there is a specific exemption in the regulations
47:46
where if you can't earn these videos you need to identify them but if you don't
47:53
have the relevant pay information and it's not reasonable for you to obtain it
47:58
we can exclude them from the calculations so they will count towards
48:04
your 250 but they won't if you don't
48:10
know what's in it for example you don't monitor they're exactly what their hours are that they work then you've got the
48:19
definition not reasonably practicable for you to obtain the data then you can exclude them from your calculations
48:26
another thing would be another query has been around long term incentive plans which you know typically
48:33
for executives would they be treated as part of a bonus or again with any part
48:39
of pay or long term long term incentive plans are bonuses so you need to look at
48:46
when payment under those plans is actually made so it's not the period
48:53
during for which the incentive is earned that might be you know there might be a three year period over which somebody's
49:01
performance or contribution to the company's performance is measured you don't look at the whole three years you
49:08
look at when some sort of payment under that incentive plan is made whether or not that's in the form of cash or
49:14
securities another question has is
49:20
around how to deal with for instance casual employees who haven't got a total
49:26
of twelve weeks pay during the year to average and presume that could also apply to new employees as well it's you
49:33
don't have to do the best you can but you use as many weeks as you possibly can in order to prorate it that's
49:39
something that's quite well dealt with in the AAS guidance and so what you
49:50
talked about the pub that the public sector and how that may differ in Wales
49:56
for instance or Scotland what all this other main difference is there the
50:03
reason why there are differences in Wales and Scotland are most likely Northern Ireland is because the
50:09
regulations are being brought in through the public sector equality gt obligation and so that's actually devolved so it's
50:18
the Scottish government and the Welsh government that have the power to bring in the equivalent regulations to apply
50:25
to Scottish and Welsh and the same in Northern Ireland public authorities
50:32
there and they haven't yet done it and that with somebody from based in Wales
50:37
so I'm looking I'm keen to find out when it's happening it's in miles and and that with somebody from
50:44
the last government the other day and there is no current plans because they already have much more onerous reporting
50:50
obligations under the public sector equality duty regulations regime force in Wales already and so you think that
51:00
they will keep Sidra public sector organization in Wales you'll use the
51:07
existing requirements rather than the ones that are going to come up from the
51:12
gender pay gap yes I think so but I think I think there will also be an
51:17
underlying pressure on organizations that if they've got this information or they can easily put this information
51:23
together then they should be producing it anyway in Wales the within two weeks
51:30
of the draft regulations being published all of the local authorities in Wales had Freedom of Information requests
51:37
asking for this information so I think in the end the same standard information
51:45
will be required of all organizations providing they've got more than two engine 50 employees well I think you've
51:53
got quite a lot of other questions as well but I think what it will be useful is after the end of the webinar will
51:59
you'll be able to the opportunity there to kind of go through some of these and
52:04
will be able to put them on our website and let people when we email out and
52:11
people who listen to the webinar to let them know that it's now available on our website and people also the opportunity
52:17
to and see how you responded to some of those q and A's and they we haven't been
52:23
able to get through as well as some of the ones that we've already discussed in case that and you'd like to add some
52:28
more fanfic ation so I think I would I would say that one question there about
52:33
Housing Association Association definitely count as private organisations for this purpose yes
52:41
though I suppose they were even if they had been volunteer that have been picked up they would have been has picked up anyway wouldn't they I suppose yeah
52:48
they're not public authorities the organisations that account the authorities of those that are listed
52:53
in the schedules to the Freedom of Information Act so anybody is not listed there it is
52:59
included right well I'd like to thank
53:05
you Emma and also Adrienne as well for presenting this afternoon I've found it
53:12
quite interesting both for your insights Emma and how your organization Adrienne is is dealing with these issues and just
53:21
to reiterate that the webinar will be available on the CIP DS website and we
53:28
will be emailing participants to let them know when the webinar is on our
53:35
website and for you to download and just to let also you to remind you that the
53:41
CIP will be having a reward sig webinar in May time and to look out for details
53:48
about that so I like to wish you all the best for the rest of the day and thank
53:55
you for listening to the CIP D's webinar thank you