Jill Miller: We are looking today at advice for employers. So what we're aiming to do through this webinar is to provide some really useful suggestions and ideas of how you could, in your own workplace, put in some effective workplace support for employees at what can be a really difficult time for people. So I'm your host today, my name is Jill Miller. I'm a Senior Policy Advisor at the CIPD, and I focus on equality, diversity and inclusion. And we are really pleased at the CIPD to be running this webinar today. Not least because it is baby loss awareness week, but also because we have, just yesterday launched new research, a new survey report, focusing on workplace support for people experiencing pregnancy and baby loss. I'm not going to say too much more about that research now, as my colleague Rachel Suff will be talking more about some of those key findings from that work, to really set the scene for today's webinar. I'm going to get straight on to introduce you to today's speakers, because obviously that's who you've come to hear from. First of all, we'll be hearing from our membership director, David D'Souza. He's going to, he's done a video message for us, because he was very keen to support this webinar, and explain why this is such an important area for us at CIPD to be supporting the HR profession, to then better support their people in this respect. Then going to hand on to my colleague, Rachel Suff, a Senior Advisor as well in our public policy team, and she focuses on health and wellbeing and employee relations. And she's going to give her, as I said, a, an overview of some of the key findings from our survey research. And I think you'll agree when you hear them that they are, they're useful findings, I think as well to inspire employee action. Because ultimately that's what we want is more employers putting in place effective workplace support. I'll then hand on to, Vicki Robinson, who is Deputy Director at the Miscarriage Association. She's going to be talking about some of the facts around pregnancy and baby loss and the feelings. She's going to be talking about things like the different kinds of loss and the impact that that can have on people.
 
We'll then be hearing from Rosie Leverton, Head of Corporate Partnerships at Tommy's, about the organisational support that may be useful to people. And last but not least, I'm delighted we are joined by Helen Hicks, who is the Colleague Experience Manager at the Co-op. We're delighted that we've been able to feature a full case study from the Co-op about the great work they're doing to support their own people. And that's on our CIPD website at the moment, we published that yesterday. And Helen is going to tell us a bit more and really bring that case study to life for us and share what they're doing. Now it's, I think it's important for me to say here, I wanted to say upfront, given the topic of today's webinar, our intention is to be as sensitive, compassionate and inclusive as we can. We do understand if we, if you feel this webinar is not for you, which is why I wanted to run through what our speakers will be covering upfront. You can see on the screen now that we do have some really useful resources, such as from the Miscarriage Association and Tommy's who are speaking today, they have helplines as well. So hopefully they are useful sources of support. But we've also flagged on this slide some of the CIPD workplace resources as well that we've just launched. So I'm now going to move on to some of our housekeeping things. Thanks Kristian, for moving on our slides. First thing I need to say is, this session is being recorded. It will be available on demand on the webinar section of our CIPD website, and you can access previous recordings, sign up for future ones. So do take a look at some of the upcoming topics. A few things on how the webinar itself will run.
 
I'm sure there'll be questions for our panellists, and if you'd like to submit a question at any point of the webinar, please could I ask you to type it in the Q and A box? So not the chat box, because that won't be checked as often, the Q and A box for questions if possible. All attendees will be on mute, so if you want to network with fellow attendees, the chat box is the place to go. And if you want to share with everybody, use the all panellists and attendees option there. Now, in line with the slide that you can see now, I wanted to mention that CIPD members can get individual legal advice, just call our HR inform helpline, which is available 24/7. And then finally, next slide please Kristian, thank you. CIPD members in the UK and Ireland can also access our wellbeing hub and helpline, together with award winning workplace wellbeing provider Health Assured, we now provide CIPD members with free help and support 24/7 and 365 days a year, via telephone or online consultations with qualified therapists. Members can access the phone number and the online services via the membership benefits webpage. You'll see more details about this at the end of the session. So I think that's all the housekeeping things from me up front. I'm keen to pass over to our speakers. I'll be introducing people as we go along or really handing over between speakers. And then at the end, I'll be facilitating the Q and A session. So do start to note down any questions as they come to you. To mention here, we can't comment on individual cases, and also to mention that we do have the legal helpline I mentioned, and the sources of support that our speakers will also be flagging as we go through. So I'm going to hand over now to our webinar team, to play the video from our membership director, David D'Souza. 
 
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JM: Kristian, I'm not sure if we, I'm not hearing any sound. I'm looking to some other people I can see, I'm afraid no sound at the minute. Are we able to reset it please? Thank you very much.
 
(pause)
 
JM: No, I'm afraid we still can't hear the sound. I'm just going to give the webinar team a few minutes just to look at the technical side of things behind the scenes. If it's not possible to get the video up, then I think we can come to our first speaker Rachel Suff, and maybe come back to the video if that makes it easier for everyone.
 
(pause)
 
JM: Great. Yes, sorry to put you on the spot here Rachel, is it OK if we come straight to you? Because I think your session is going to set the scene for us as well really isn't it, from the statistics? So I'll hand straight over to you, Rachel.
 
Rachel Suff: Yeah, of course. Thank you, Jill. And I'm sure we can hear David in a bit. And I think one of the points that David was going to make in his opening remarks was, how pregnancy and baby loss, and support for people experiencing that at work can be very hidden in workplaces. And one of our overriding aims in carrying out this project, producing guidance, is to bring it much more into the light and have pregnancy and baby loss recognised as the important workplace wellbeing issue it is at work. Because our research has shown that there is a considerable gap at the moment. So on the next slide, I've got just some key findings from that research that Jill mentioned that we published yesterday, and we surveyed both employers and employees, because we want to have both sides of the picture and some headline figures here. And it does demonstrate that gap and what more could be done. So, first of all, in terms of the current climate, we can see that employers, and we surveyed over 2,000 senior HR professionals and decision makers in UK organisations. And we found that just over one in three, have a policy, 9% of those have a standalone policy around support for people experiencing pregnancy or baby loss. So it's not that high. And then another important finding that really jumped out at us, just a quarter of those surveyed said that their organisation encourages an open, supportive climate where employees can talk about issues like pregnancy loss. And that says quite a lot I think, because the climate, the environment that we're working in at work, what we feel we can say, and can't say is going to have a really major influence on whether people can talk about these issues, but also can they share their own experience with their manager, with HR and crucially get that support that they could really need at such a challenging time? And then employees, what did employees tell us? Under half, 45% of people who'd experienced sadly pregnancy or baby loss felt supported by their employer, but around a fifth, so 21% received no support. And then for me, this was such a concern in finding, around a quarter have thought about leaving their job because of their experience related to their loss. And I think that is such a stark warning at the moment for the need for more workplace support, understanding and compassion and so on.
 
And then just over half of people felt able to tell their employer, whether that's their manager, HR, about their experience. And another sign I think of the need to create more compassionate workplaces, where people can share their experience. And that goes for partners as well. But I don't want to focus too much on the gap because it's important that we recognise it, know it's there. But I think the important focus for us as HR professionals, organisations is to move on and say, right, what can we do to close that gap? And here we have a very brief overview of the framework of support that we advocate for employees. And I know the other speakers, the other panellists will be touching on some of this as well in terms of what they advocate. And in terms of how do you create that effective workplace environment? What do you, what do you need to do as an organisation? And I think the first step that box is around challenging the taboo, and the fact that it is a hidden work issue in a lot of workplaces. So it's raising awareness, and I think we are helped in the world of work by a number of developments outside work as well in society. Because obviously what happens in the workplace is linked to what happens outside work as well. And there have been some developments, it is more in the media now, people are talking a bit more, I think, about pregnancy and baby loss. We've got a private members bill that's sponsored by Angela Crawley MP. We're very supportive of it. And that's to introduce paid leave for people experiencing miscarriage before 24 weeks, and that's for partners too. And then we've got developments in New Zealand, paid miscarriage leave brought in there, you might have seen in the news. And then we've got some UK organisations, and so thrilled to have Co-op in that regard, who are really leading the way and introducing fantastic workplace support for people. And then the second box, create that open, inclusive and supportive culture. And on that theme, I think for us at the CIPD it's really important, and this will run through our guidance as well, is that organisations are inclusive about the many different experiences of pregnancy or baby loss that there is.
 
I hadn't really grasped before starting on this project, how many different experiences of loss there is. And it's important to remember as well, I think that at whatever stage that loss is, it can be devastating for both individuals, both expectant parents. And we can't assume what anybody's personal situation or family makeup is either. And we need to offer support to any individual who's experiencing a loss like this. And it could be adoptive parents, it could be foster parents, intended parents, surrogates and we mustn't forget the needs and grief of partners as well. I think in society as well, often their grief, their loss, their needs are often overlooked, and they're going to be very likely grieving, but also supporting their partners. So I feel that that's so important, that's come through strongly to us in this work. And then thirdly, leave and managing absence. These are two areas at the heart of people management that will make a real difference to how well people are practically supported, but also how compassionately they feel supported. And I think flexibility is the key word there, being responsive to people's individual needs. Everybody's loss is different, everyone's going to experience a loss differently and will need different kinds of support there. Finally, line managers, so important in terms of supporting people's health and wellbeing at work. We know this from all our research at the CIPD. And if we just turn to the next slide, thank you Kristian. What is the value of line managers? It came through so strongly from our research with employees, the first bullet, the understanding from my manager that it can be a challenging time was considered the second most helpful form of support. Second, only to paid compassionate or special leave, which shows that it's not just the practical, tangible support, very important, but it's actually that understanding, that empathy, that acknowledgement of your loss and so on that's really important, and line managers play a central role there. But on the second bullet, where people felt supported by their manager, over half said it had a positive impact on a whole number of areas. People's mental wellbeing, their ability to perform in their job, their commitment to their employer and their intention to stay with their employer.
 
Remember that stat I mentioned about people, such a number of people wanting to, considering leaving their job if they didn't get it. So, such a strong rationale for organisations to support managers to support people. And then three and four, people who had not felt supported would have found line manager support beneficial. So there's the rationale for the role that line managers play. On the final slide, very briefly to cover, what is the role of the line manager? Because of course, we're not expecting them to be counsellors or medical experts or give advice. They need to understand the boundaries of their role of course, but nevertheless, they do play a really central role in supporting people's wellbeing day to day. Their role crucially is to help employees with the work aspects of their situation and ensure that work isn't part of the problem. And how do they do that? Well, firstly, they will typically be the first port to call working down the pyramid for people to approach, be able to discuss sensitive issues like pregnancy and baby loss. They need to have empathy to listen, to have those sensitive conversations. And then they are a gateway they're very often the main, if not only link, that that person has with the organisation to access all sorts of helpful support and to make those adjustments, deliver that flexibility. Then thirdly, they will, they do manage leave and absence day to day, they implement all those policies, return to work, crucial role there. So they really need to be capable and trained and confident in carrying those key parts of their rollout. But then all this on the left hand side of the slide all has to happen, not in isolation, but in the context of that relationship that they've got with people in their team. Is it based on trust? Are they open, approachable? Do employees feel safe to talk about sensitive issues like health and loss? So I'll leave my presentation there, but again, to just highlight the resources that Jill mentioned. Thank you.
 
JM: Thank you very much Rachel. I think that's really a useful context setting for today's webinar. I'm going to hand straight now over to you, Vicki. So Vicki Robinson, Deputy Director at the Miscarriage Association, who's going to talk about some of the facts and the feelings around pregnancy and baby loss. So over to you Vicki.
 
Vicki Robinson: Thanks, Jill. Yeah, as Jill said, we're going to go back to the beginning a little bit here and just talk a bit more about the different types of pregnancy loss, who might be affected and the feelings and the impact that it might have. So the next slide please. So just first off, a little bit about the Miscarriage Association, who we are and what we do. We are a registered UK charity, we work across England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, and we provide free support information to anyone who's affected by miscarriage, ectopic or molar pregnancy, which are the main types of loss that I'll be focusing on today.  And when we say anyone, that could be the person who's experienced the physical loss, but also obviously their partner, grandparents, and in fact anyone who is supporting someone. And we do this through our website and we have a helpline, live chat and support groups as well. We also raise awareness and educate around pregnancy loss, we promote good care, we advise on programs like the National Bereavement Care Pathway, and also provide learning sessions for health professionals. And we offer specific resources to support people in the workplace too. So including training and consultancy for employers and those line managers who Rachel spoke about. Next slide please. 
 
So we'll start just by looking at miscarriage, which is the most common type of pregnancy loss. In the UK, miscarriage is the loss of a baby or a fetus before 24 weeks of pregnancy. If a baby is lost after 24 weeks, then that's known as a stillbirth. Legally they're very different in that stillbirth is legally recognised and is registered, and those who sadly experience it are entitled to their full maternity or paternity benefits and rights, as well as a period of parental bereavement leave as well. For losses before 24 weeks, there are no such rights at the moment and there's no legal right to paid time off. Although, as Rachel mentioned, there is a campaign ongoing to try to change that. Around one in four pregnancies ends in miscarriage, and that equates to roughly a quarter of a million pregnancies being lost in the UK each year. So you can see just from that, that it is horribly common, but that doesn't mean it can't be deeply distressing both physically and emotionally for those people who go through it. And for many, if not most, the loss of a pregnancy, however early it happens, it is felt as the loss of a baby, of a, as a planned future, as a family together. And many couples tell us that they experience pregnancy loss as a bereavement, just like they might any other. Miscarriage is usually a one off event, and most couples who are trying to conceive will then go on to have a healthy pregnancy the next time. But that doesn't always happen. In around one in a hundred couples, they will, couples who are trying for a pregnancy will experience recurrent loss, and that's where they've had three miscarriages in a row. And it's only after they've had these three losses in a row that most couples are currently able to access investigations or interventions on the NHS. Next slide please. 
 
An ectopic pregnancy, most of you I'm sure will have heard of, but it, ectopic just means out of place. So it's a pregnancy that is found outside the main cavity of the womb. It happens in around one in 80 pregnancies. It's most often found in one of the fallopian tubes, where clearly there isn't room for the baby to grow. Unfortunately, there isn't any way of transplanting that pregnancy to the proper place, and it does mean the pregnancy isn't able to survive and will have to be managed. If the ectopic pregnancy isn't discovered on a scan and it continues to develop, it can then lead to the rupturing of that tube and internal bleeding, which is a life-threatening situation which does require urgent intervention. And so ectopic pregnancy can be really distressing, not just because you've lost your baby, but you might have had to undergo urgent surgery. But there's also the possibility you might lose one of those fallopian tubes as well, which then can have an impact on your future fertility. And I think we mentioned partners a little bit earlier, but an ectopic pregnancy can be particularly distressing for partners as well, because they're going through the loss of their baby, but they've also had to witness their partner go into an emergency surgery situation, which in itself can be quite traumatic. Molar pregnancy, most people probably won't have heard of, it's far less common. It affects around one in 600 pregnancies, and it's where the conception really just goes wrong from the start. There are too many cells growing, cells that would be the placenta start growing far too quickly and overtake the start of that pregnancy. And again, it can't survive, but that's a condition that would need some specialist follow up as well. Next slide please. 
 
So I mentioned our particular focus is on miscarriage, ectopic and molar pregnancy, but there are other types of loss that are relevant and should be thought about in a workplace setting too. So embryo transfer loss is where someone has undergone fertility treatment, but that transfer doesn't then result in a successful pregnancy. That can be really hard too, as technically somebody isn't pregnant yet, it might well have taken a great deal of time and emotional and probably, quite often financial investment to get to this point for the rug to be pulled from under them. Abortion or termination, so that's as it sounds. It's the intervention to end a pregnancy for any reason, it can be where there is a risk to maternal health or where there's been a diagnosis of a fetal anomaly, but, even where it's perceived to be a choice, it doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't a difficult situation for those going through it, or that the pregnancy wasn't ultimately wanted. And still birth, as we mentioned earlier, is the loss of a baby from 24 weeks of pregnancy. It happens in around 100 and, 250 births each year in the UK, and neonatal death there is where the baby is born living, but sadly dies within the first 28 days. And that affects one in 360 births. Next slide please. 
 
So we'll have a quick look at the potential physical impact of pregnancy loss first. I think people will have some understanding of this area, but might not fully understand it, it certainly isn't necessarily always what we might see it portrayed as on the TV. So a miscarriage can happen spontaneously where there is sudden pain or bleeding, or it can be discovered and is quite often discovered at a routine scan. Now the latter is usually known as a missed miscarriage. So in the case of a missed miscarriage, someone would usually be given options to how they wish to then manage that pregnancy which cannot continue. They can choose to go for expectant or conservative management, so that might be what you would consider allowing nature to take its course for things to, your brain and your body to catch up and for the body to do what it naturally would. That can take several weeks though to start and resolve, and so some people aren't able to deal with that situation understandably. Others might decide to take medication to start this process, or others might choose or require surgical intervention. So those who undergo expectant management or medical management, and it depends how far along they were, but they may have well experience significant pain and bleeding, and there might well be a labour like process with contractions. And then in an ectopic pregnancy, there could, as we said, there could be even more severe symptoms really like fainting or collapse. It's often a very, very painful situation. And people who experience pregnancy loss, however it's managed, are likely to experience symptoms for some time afterwards. They're also likely to have ongoing medical appointments or procedures that need to be undertaken. And they're generally likely to feel pretty tired and exhausted, be having trouble sleeping, might well feel weak, particularly if they're losing a lot of blood, they might be facing things like anaemia. And they're also going to be having, or most likely to be having hormonal changes and mood swings because of what their body's coping with.
 
Next slide please. In terms of how someone might be affected emotionally, and I use word might because it is a very individual experience. So there's a whole gamut of feelings for both a person undergoing the physical loss, but also their partner, and sometimes wider family members too. So people might experience one of these, but in many occasions they're likely to experience several of these. They could well be in shock, especially as we say, if they didn't suspect anything was wrong, and they went for what should have been a routine or happy scan, come away with a nice photo of your baby to be told it doesn't have a heartbeat or it isn't developing properly. Grief and loss, absolutely. Anger and guilt. Guilt's a really common feeling, most people will never know what caused their miscarriage because they don't get tests. But it is very unlikely to really be anything that they did or didn't do that. But that doesn't stop people seeking reasons and quite often, deciding that they're going to blame themselves. Needing to be strong and not acknowledge their own grief or distress, that's particularly common for partners who sometimes just don't feel entitled to their feelings because they haven't been through the physical loss, and they're having to bottle all of that up and feeling you need to be strong or you can't speak to people, can lead to a real sense of isolation for partners. Next slide please. 
 
You'll maybe have seen on the last side that anxiety is a really, really common symptom after pregnancy loss. And in fact, studies have shown that miscarriage can have a very significant effect on mental health. So there was, there've been two pieces of research actually carried out by Imperial College in London, and that showed that one month after their loss, a third of women had symptoms of PTSD. Now, they haven't been formally diagnosed with PTSD, but they're showing all the signs of suffering from it. One in four of them had moderate anxiety, and one in ten had severe depression. And you can see there, nine months later, a lot of those symptoms are still with people. So these feelings and symptoms stay with people for a very long time. Next slide please. And again, while the symptoms are not quite as marked in partners, they are absolutely still prevalent. So this slide just looks at PTSD there, and this is what the research has found, but obviously there are an awful lot of partners who also suffer with anxiety and depression too. And next slide please. That's pretty much it from me. I hope that's given some small insight into the facts and feelings around pregnancy loss. If you would like to find out any more information or support, we offer that, whether it's on a personal or professional level. So yeah, have a look at our website, and you might also be interested in details of our Pregnancy Loss Pledge Campaign, which is on there too. Thank you.
 
JM: Great, thank you Vicki for sharing with us there, and also for flagging the sources of support. I think that is very helpful. I'm going to hand now to Rosie Leverton, who is going to take our conversation on to be looking at the kinds of organisation support that you might want to consider, or that might be useful. As we said, everyone's needs are different, but I think there are some overarching things that Rosie's going to share with us that are useful to think about. And also just to remind you of the Q and A, if there's anything that you would like to ask any of our panellists. I can see there's some posts up already. Please do continue to post up any questions as they come to you. But now I'm going to hand straight to you Rosie.
 
Rosie Leverton:Thanks Jill. So, for everyone that might not know, Tommy's is also a UK registered charity, we're actually the UK's largest pregnancy and baby charity. And if we go to the next slide, I'll just give some context about who we are before I go into what we've found, and what I hope would be really, really helpful for you. So as I mentioned, we are the UK's largest pregnancy and baby charity, and we purely exist to save baby's lives and to support everyone on their pregnancy journey, no matter how that journey goes. So we fund research to save baby's lives and to find out what goes wrong during pregnancy, and how do we stop that from happening? Work with the NHS to make that care available to everybody. But we also provide really trusted expert information, we've got an amazing team of in house midwives, a different midwife on the helpline every day, who also help us support everyone on that pregnancy journey from the moment you start thinking about having a baby, through to those first few months after birth. Whether you have a complication, a loss, no matter what type of loss, we have information and support for absolutely everyone. And like Miscarriage Association, anyone can contact us for support. It's not just your, if you're pregnant or gone through the loss yourself, it's colleagues, friends, family, grandparents, quite common as well. So we really are there for absolutely everyone. And the reason I'm speaking to you today is because about two years ago, we did a lot of research into workplace and pregnancy loss. And we talked to employers, employees, our team of in house midwives, our researchers, and thousands of parents. And we found, as you said, really common themes about what you can do as an employer that really make a difference. And we're really solutions focused, so I really hope this is going to be very practical. So if we go to the next slide, I'm not going to spend too long on this because I think actually Rachel and the CIPD's report has done on a fantastic job of giving you the case for support for why this is so important. But we also ran our own version of this study in 2021, and we repeated it in 2022 and had almost the exact same results. And I just want to highlight, as Vicki said, like miscarriages, they, aren't just an event that happens, you get over and you come back to work, it's an ongoing process. And you all might have people in roles where they're responsible for things like health and safety, where it could be a manual role, they could quite easily be experiencing those symptoms of PTSD flashbacks, things like that, well after the miscarriage. 
 
So it's well worth keeping in mind that it's not just a single event, it's an ongoing process. The other stat, I'm just going to pick up on this slide is, as Rachel said, that stat on managers, we know that actually nearly 70% of people felt that their manager wanted to do something, but when it came to, did they actually, were they able to do something? Only a third thought they actually had any idea of what to do. And this is really key because it's this massive gap between what your intentions are and then what's actually happening when your employee goes through that loss. So keep that in mind as we go through this. So if we move to the next slide, please. 
 
I just want to take a moment just to pause on these comments, because these are comments that parents tell us they hear quite frequently, especially when it comes to miscarriage, where it's perhaps less understood in earlier loss, there's more misconceptions around it. Do feel free to put in the chat if you've heard similar comments yourself, or have said similar comments yourself, because they often don't come from a malicious place, they come from a place of wanting to help someone. But we know that ultimately, while they might be well meaning, they can end up being quite dismissive and we'll go on to say what you should and shouldn't say in this section. But what I want to then move onto is my first point around these, comments and language is the first tip that I would absolutely give you, and as Rachel said is, you have to train your managers. Please make sure that your managers, your HR managers, whoever is having that direct conversation with your employee has support on how to do that. Because otherwise you're putting them in quite a difficult situation, it's quite unfair, but also it's down to luck as to whether they know what to say and how to say something in a way that is going to come across as supportive to your employee. So it's so crucial that the person that is going to have that one to one relationship is representing your organisation, has the support to do that properly, because otherwise it is just such a crucial turning point in that relationship. And it is, it's not fair that it should feel like luck, whether that's one that goes well or not. My second tip would be, a policy is really good, and it is, I think it's brilliant the number of policies we've seen over the last couple of years coming out. I would say that unless you have that previous step of making sure that you know how you're going to implement it on that person to person level, you've only done half the work. But it is absolutely crucial that you have a policy that references pregnancy and baby loss, and that it explicitly does so.
 
You might think that, oh well, our compassionate leave policy encompasses pregnancy loss. But unless you specifically write those words and write the word miscarriage and make it really explicit about who can access it, people won't do it. They will feel that they're not entitled to it, and it's, your intentions won't be felt by them. So talk to people, talk to people like Tommy's, like the Miscarriage Association, talk to us about the language you should use and make sure that you're being really inclusive. Think about where the policy is housed, please don't house it under your maternity policies. I know that might feel quite natural, but think about the journey your employee's going to have to go through to reach that policy. They don't want to see what could have been, they just want to make it really easy and take the burden off them. I know, this is something I heard Vicki say before, and I've put it in here, but this, it's really important to think, what if? The manager who's meant to be responsible for the situation, managing the employee, what if they have gone through loss and this is a really difficult thing for them to manage? What's your backup plan? Who is, within the organisation centrally, is that port of call if you can't have the manager themselves have those conversations? I think it goes without saying that make sure that it applies to both partners, and a common theme that you're going to hear over and over is that, we often get asked about a set amount of leave, should we offer three days, two weeks? There's lots of different examples out there. It's very difficult to say to you what is an appropriate amount of time. I think it's really good to have a certain amount of time named within your policy, but you have to build in flexibility around that and appreciate that it can't be the be all and end all. What you don't want is someone being faced with the attitude of, oh, well you've had your five days off, surely it's fine now, come back to work. You need to appreciate that you need to have that flexibility built into the policy itself and all the support systems around it. 
 
So that comes to my next point, which is to be really flexible. Grief is really different for everyone, it's not one size fits all. There are lots and lots of options available to now, to us nowadays on return to work, how you can phase that or think about how do you make that much easier for employees, so they're not just coming back to work and it feels like a shock? And keep checking in with them, not just after that immediate return, but ongoing. So make sure that it's not, again, just keep that on, that open conversation going and make sure that you know what options are available to you as an employer, and to them as the employee. Anniversaries, again, this theme of ongoing support, there are going to be days in the year where their grief is going to be bigger and harder for them to deal with, like their baby's due date. So please, if you can be flexible around request for leave, if it's just one day in the year or a couple of days, just remember how much that might mean to them, to, for you to be able to accommodate that. And then finally, I think as Vicki mentioned, if someone gets pregnant again, they're not fixed, they're not like, oh great, it's all fine now. They are going to be really anxious in that following pregnancy. So do please do everything you can to support them in that future pregnancy, going to as many appointments as they need, they will probably have more appointments, more scans. The more you can do to just make that process really easy for them, and know that they're not worrying about work and whether they should go to their scan or not, is, it will make a world of difference. And in particular, the partners. I saw someone put a question about whether partners, how many appointments they get to go to. Legally, they're entitled to two appointments throughout their partner's pregnancy. It's not very much, like in a, just in an uncomplicated pregnancy. If someone's pregnant again after a loss, that partner is going to be, if they're not able to go to the scan with their partner, they're going to be sitting there thinking, what's happening? Are they being told that our baby doesn't have a heartbeat? Are they going to be all alone in that scan room? So do everything you can to really support partners, even though legally, they don't have a lot of provision for them. If you can do more to support them and tell them to go to those appointments, again, it will make a world difference. So I'm conscious of time, so I think this next slide, I'm not going to dwell on too much, but I just really want you to take home this point that, when you're thinking about your policies, when you're thinking about pregnancy and baby loss, it's a couple, it's not a women's issue, it is all of our issue, and it really does affect partners. And there's a lot that the workplace can and should be doing to help men in particular acknowledge or recognise their grief. So think about actually what a position of power you are in to make that difference for partners. So my final couple of tips, the first one is going to be around talking. So the first three are more about structural changes that you can, could and should put in place. But what happens when you talk to someone directly? Please, please don't say nothing. It's the worst thing, one of the worst things you could do. Because actually you might be thinking, well, I don't want to say the wrong thing, or I don't want to remind them of their baby, you're not going to remind them of their baby.
 
In fact, they're probably really grateful to talk about their baby. And if you avoid them, they're going to feel really isolated. Don't try and find like a bright side or any solutions to their loss. It's a real human instinct to say those comments that we saw earlier, because we want to make someone feel better. That's where it's coming from, but ultimately, I think a really good rule of thumb is, if your sentence could or does start with at least, just don't say it, because you're going to make them feel like their loss isn't as important as it is, even if that's not your intention. And the final thing on a don'ts is decisions. Even if, again, they're really well intentioned, you might have done a collection at work and you're like, oh, let us know where you want us to send, which charity you want them to send the money to. They might not be able to make that decision. They might have been asked to make loads of really overwhelming decisions about their loss, what do they do with their baby, with their body, that, any decision that you can hold off and just let them know that when they're ready, they can come and talk to you about it. Again, you're just taking that immediate burden off them as an individual. So if we move to the next slide, what can you and should you do and say? 
 
So lots and lots of companies ask us what can we do when someone's pregnant again? Or someone is going on maternity leave, we're really worried about our colleague that went through a loss. They're not going to expect you to hide them away, but what they are going to really appreciate, if you can take them to the side and give them advanced warning, basically just ensure that at every point they're not going to be blind sided by something. I think that's a good, again, a good rule of thumb. Ask about their baby, use their baby's name and ask about them in the present tense, what is your baby's name? Parents love talking about their babies, sometimes they might want to send around a note, whether that's through you as a manager or as a, or personally about their baby. And just so everyone, more people know about them, that memory of them stays alive. So don't be afraid, because there's, you can do it in a really simple way, and I've got a couple of examples after this. And so as I said, the final tip on the dos is, be aware of significant dates, like those due dates, like the date, the anniversary of their loss, other dates in the year like baby loss awareness week, which might bring up more grief for them at that particular time, and they might need just a bit more support from you. 
 
So what does, what can you say? Here's one really lovely example of what you can say and it's, and this was, we've got permission to share this. There was two guys who work at Southeastern, and they got talking, Greg, on the right here, shared that his little boy had been stillborn and then very recently afterwards, the news about Ronaldo and his losses hit the news. And his, this is what his manager said, he said, I don't quite know what to say. You don't need to have the perfect words, but just saying you're sorry, and that you're thinking of him, it's enough. It really is. It doesn't need to be complicated. Now if we move to the next slide, just ask, how are you doing? They might not want to talk right there and then, but you're opening the door for them to come to you. So my final tip for you would simply be, like you are all doing by being on this call, is breaking the silence, raising awareness. We've got lots of support at Tommy's, you can book sessions with midwives that are, through us to host sessions for you and your colleagues to understand how you can support your colleagues through loss. I've made a note on employee support groups, and that's simply because, so I see a lot of women's networks involved in raising awareness around loss. And remember that it's, loss doesn't just affect women, it affects everybody. And the more we can bring it together as, and open that conversation around the fact that it affects both partners, the more we're going to make those conversations normalised. So those are my top five tips, there is a summary slide, but I think if we just skip right through to the next one, because I'm so conscious of the time. But there are lots of resources, please come and talk to any one of the organisations on this side. At Tommy's we have, as I said, our team of in house midwives, like the Miscarriage Association, we also have line manager training, policy guidance, a really holistic support offer. So there is absolutely loads of things that you can do to make a difference. And you're not alone in this. We all really want to help you get this right. So thank you very much. And I'm going to pass over to, back to Jill maybe.
 
JM: Yes. Thank you very much Rosie. And as you mentioned on time, I know we are tight on time, but I just think the practical things that you're sharing here are just so valuable. Just that what to say that's most helpful, what to avoid saying is really useful. And as well yourself, Vicki and Rachel have all flagged the importance of not forgetting about partners. And I think that's one of the key, a key take away that's really coming through strongly. And thank you for sharing again the resources. Just to reiterate, we are recording today, we are planning to share the slides. So if you haven't been able to note everything down that you wanted to, they will be shared afterwards. But for now, I'm going to hand us straight over to Helen Hicks from the Co-op to, I suppose on the next stage of the webinar, tell us about how, the journey that you've been on and how you support people within your own workplace.
 
Helen Hicks: Thanks Jill. Yes. So just by way of a very quick recap, in case anyone's not aware of who Co-op is, we're the UK's largest consumer cooperative owned by about four million members. We've got businesses in funeral care, food retail, legal services and insurance as well. So we employ over 60,000 colleagues across the UK in various roles from operations, store colleagues. So a huge number. So in terms of where, a bit of background in terms of how we got here. It was back in 2021, so and still following on from the global pandemic, we'd started a bit of colleague insight and listening in relation to how we support colleagues who go through grief and bereavement. And during a number of surveys, listening groups and focus groups, there was a theme that kept coming out, which was around pregnancy loss, specifically under the 24 weeks. And it made us realise that we'd never had these conversations before, and this, and these conversations were starting to happen with colleagues who it had impacted directly, but also their families and their partners. And so we really felt, we saw that there was a gap here and we wanted to do something. So, and we also noticed at the time there was other organisations starting to look at this such as Channel 4 and Monzo, and we knew that New Zealand had recently changed their legislation in this space as well. So we looked, we, at Co-op, we have a policy design group whenever we look at any new policies. And we'd, initially we started to look around, is this something we can do within our existing policy? So for example, like someone said earlier around our compassionate leave policy. But I think with further discussions with our colleagues, and we had worked very closely with the Miscarriage Association as well, that it was around, that we did decide that a separate standalone policy was needed. And that was to really be clear to colleagues around what support was available to them and their families as well. And so, as a result, we've created and launched our policy as well as a line manager guide. So our policies are all available to anyone going on the Co-op website, it's also included, the links are included in the case study documentation, which was published by CIPD yesterday. So the links are available and anyone can go on and have a look at those guides and policy. So in terms of what our policy covers, it's incorporating things that people have already said today around flexible paid leave, which is encouraged to be tailored about how best to support the individual. But this paid leave also extends to partners who have experienced pregnancy loss as well. Because we just felt this was really important as part of Co-op's inclusive culture as well, to make sure we were being really supportive to everyone who's impacted.
 
The policy also includes time off for medical appointments to support again, colleagues and their partners as well. And we've also extended our emergency leave for wider family. So this is for, for example, grandparents who need to be there to support family members that that pregnancy, sorry, that that emergency leave is also available. We have access to GP support available to all colleagues via New Life that we use. And this is 24/7 GP support, which, where colleagues can make virtual GP appointments, there's access to psychologist led mental health support, second opinions and really that proactive health guidance for colleagues. And that is available 24/7. So all of that is included in the policy, and like I said, we have got that line manager guide as well, which does incorporate, it goes into quite a lot of detail and incorporates, and really helps managers educate them and support them in terms of having the conversations. And we talk through the dos and the don'ts in terms of what to say and what to avoid saying. And ultimately giving them as much support as they can to help line managers give the support to colleagues in their teams. And then in terms of how, we were really quite thoughtful around how we launched the policy once it had been finalised. Our, was then our chief financial officer who's now our CEO of Co-op, Shirine, she was very engaged in this and very supportive. And she wrote an email herself which was used to support internally initially. And she included her own personal experiences in this area, which was really powerful. And as a result of that, she did receive a number of emails back from colleagues across the business to thank you in terms of, and how much they valued that personal experience, to help and to show colleagues that we have this policy, that they know where to go to if, and when they need it. And then following that internal launch across Co-op, we've also done external campaigns as well to really help encourage other organisations to do something similar in terms of their policy and guidance, and to raise the awareness as well and help campaigning with various charities. So I'm very conscious of time because I know we really near the end. But I suppose the key takeaways that we would suggest is really reaching out and engaging with the likes of Tommy's and Miscarriage Association in terms of getting the support, listening to colleagues and engaging with colleagues to get their thoughts as well. And we found that quite powerful that colleagues were part of that development of the policy. And then also be, again be thoughtful around how that's launched internally and including like the trigger warnings as well, in terms of when we sign post in, and where, and like someone else has said around, we're quite thoughtful around where we house our policies as well within the Co-op intranet. So I think that's it for me, like I say, the policies are available and the links within the case study, and also just available by going on the Co-op.co.uk website.
 
JM: Great, thank you ever so much Helen for sharing what you're doing at the Co-op. There was a question to ask if you had any slides, so just to quickly respond to that, Helen didn't have any slides today, just to really tell the story. And because that we do have a full case study that the Co-op have helpfully worked with us on, on our CIPD website that you can download to find out everything. And, but the rest of the slides will be shared after the session. So thank you so much Helen. Really pleased you could join us today. And we have a few minutes for Q and A. So I've been trying to keep an eye on some of the questions coming through. There was one question about the survey, about Rachel's session, which asked, were you, you did you survey just women or did you survey men as well? Yes, so did survey men within that, which I think is really valuable to get their views as well. If you wanted to download the full survey report off our website, it is a shorter report, it's very digestible, and it gives more of a breakdown of some of the questions and our sampling there. One of the other Q and A that we had come through was a really interesting question about, can we do more to support staff who remain permanently childless after baby loss, such as by increasing awareness of issues? And I think that is a really important thing to be mindful of, and I'm looking to really, to Vicki or Rosie, do you have any thoughts around this, about how employers can be and managers can be mindful that, so the outcome for people can be very different?
 
RL: Yeah, I'm sure Vicki would say similar things, but I think a lot of that does come back to the education of what if, even if someone, because the thing is when we talk about pregnancy and baby loss, it's, we're talk about pregnancy, but actually there's a lot of people that don't even get to the pregnancy stage. And I think the more we can talk, we've not talked particularly about fertility on this webinar, but I know it goes very much hand in hand with this topic. And I think the greater awareness that people have of the variety of journeys that there are around pregnancy and loss and fertility, the more people will know how to talk about it and how to support someone. I think also, I mentioned employee network groups, and this is because I, we talked to some employees who said, we noticed that pregnancy baby loss was being promoted and awareness raised through family networks. Which is understandable, but she, this person in particular that I'm thinking of said, well, I don't have a child, so I don't want to engage with this network, and I found it quite hurtful that that was the route that they were using to raise awareness. And it's completely innocent, you can see how that has happened, but that awareness of how is this going to look to someone that's in that position? Are there specific groups you can set up? Or, that sensitivity about where you are messaging is, I think is really important actually, because it's really easy to otherwise group people into categories that they wouldn't put themselves in.
 
VR: Yeah, I agree. It's just not making assumptions, isn't it, that everyone's journey is the same? And someone's highlighted in the chat as well, there are other charities and World Childless Week, things like that that might well be worth sign posting and highlighting as much as you would events for families or other more conventional circumstances. Somebody mentioned as well, just on that same front there that Rosie was talking about, would it be appropriate to put guidance or a policy within the maternity, adoption, paternity, maternity support policy? I would recommend not doing, just for the same reasons that we've talked about really. Somebody who is going through a loss, doesn't necessarily want to be reminded of what could have been. So asking them or signpost them to the maternity policy, doesn't feel very thoughtful. So if there's, I know lots of companies don't want to have huge policy, endless policies and trying to streamline them, but if you can put it somewhere else, put it in your bereavement policy, put it in your compassionate leave policy. But yes, perhaps not in the maternity policy.
 
JM: Great, no thank you for your thoughts and reflections there. I think that's really helpful in thinking about everybody's journey is different, and we need to treat people as individuals and have that awareness and compassion and understanding there. I'm very aware that we are, unfortunately, hit our 1 o'clock mark now. Because I'm, I know there are some other questions we didn't quite get to. Hopefully we can share some links as well, along with the slides to some other source of information, which I think might be helpful. But what I'd like to do now is to really thank, to start with our panellists, thank you ever so much for joining us to share your expertise with us today. It's been really useful, and I hope helpful for our audience. I think we had a lot of questions coming through there. I'd also like to thank our webinar team behind the scenes who have made every, all of this happen. But also a big thank you to our audience. It's great to see so many people, so many employers wanting to provide workplace support for people who are experiencing pregnancy and baby loss. I think that's a big step forward. And thank you to organisations like the Co-op who are sharing their policy, and other organisations I know have shared their policies quite freely as well online. So I think a lot of people are talking about moving forward in this respect and being more leading edge, which is great to see. I have a few, just a couple of things to mention here. As I said, the webinar will be available on demand later today, along with slides. We do have future webinars, and please don't forget, we've got a slide coming up now, don't forget CIPD's wellbeing support for members in the UK and Ireland with a free 24/7 telephone helpline, staffed by qualified therapists and provided by award winning workplace wellbeing provider, Health Assured. Great, and we will be sharing those links to the further sources of support. So thank you ever so much for joining us. Thank you to our panellists, and I'm sure this won't be the end of the conversation at CIPD. We'll be publishing more on this topic in terms of employer support and guidance of how to put effective support in place around this. So thank you ever so much and goodbye.

0:00
hello my name is David justiza and I'm
0:02
membership director at this COPD we
0:06
often talk about the criticality of the
0:09
work that the profession does and it
0:11
impacts people at different points in
0:13
the employee life cycle but also at
0:15
different points during their life and
0:18
some of the work that we do can at times
0:21
seem inadequate it will never seem
0:23
enough for the situation that people are
0:25
facing but that's at times the most
0:29
important work that we can do making
0:31
sure that the conditions that people are
0:33
experiencing in the workplace is
0:35
supportive
0:36
of what's happening to them outside of
0:39
the workplace
0:40
so I'm really glad that we can do this
0:42
webinar today on baby lost
0:46
and pregnancy loss because it's
0:48
something that touches probably more
0:50
people than you might realize so up to
0:53
one in four pregnancies don't go there
0:55
at full time
0:59
that means that there are probably
1:00
people within your organizations
1:02
depending on the size of sending people
1:04
that you might have passed in your
1:05
career where that has happened today
1:08
what's happened to their partner and
1:11
they haven't felt able to chill and
1:13
that's happened under the radar we like
1:15
to think that we can play a small part
1:17
as an organization in helping other
1:18
organizations shine a light on this and
1:21
the work that can be done to make sure
1:24
that people in that situation have as
1:27
much support as possible it is
1:30
critically important that people are
1:32
able to talk
1:34
and chat when it comes to this issue
1:37
that they feel confident in the support
1:39
that their organization can provide and
1:42
we know that it's not discussed as much
1:45
as it might be and that might be one of
1:46
the reasons why you as an employer or as
1:49
an individual feel uncomfortable or
1:51
haven't thought about the level of
1:52
support that you provide for what can be
1:54
a really critical time for people in
1:58
terms of their wealthy
1:59
it's an absolute Moment of Truth for
2:02
employers it's something we'd never like
2:05
to happen to someone else where it's
2:08
very difficult to deal with people with
2:10
bereavement and helping helping them
2:13
understand that so what we're asking
2:16
employers to do what we're asking you to
2:18
do if you don't do it already is put in
2:21
place a genuine framework for support so
2:24
not just a policy a policy can always
2:26
help to make things clear but actually
2:29
it's about what's underpinning and
2:31
surrounding that to create a genuine
2:33
framework so that is thinking about how
2:36
you can be compassionate as an employer
2:39
how you can provide the support that
2:41
people need or whatever support you
2:42
reasonably can provide
2:44
thinking about your line managers and
2:47
how well equipped they are to deal in a
2:49
situation like this but also beyond that
2:51
the support that you give them to make
2:54
sure that they can deal with what can
2:56
often be a very challenging time there
2:58
is nothing more difficult uh to managing
3:01
someone when they're going through
3:03
bereavement and to say the right time to
3:06
say it and also recognizing that no
3:09
matter what you do you can't resolve
3:10
that situation
3:12
so we'd like to help them we'd like to
3:15
encourage you to create that cultural
3:17
support and compassion to provide
3:19
Clarity for people about what they can
3:22
access in terms of support in terms of
3:25
what the organization can offer but most
3:28
of all would like to think about that in
3:30
the round by each free environment where
3:34
if someone does need help someone has
3:36
gone through
3:37
maybe those that they are in a situation
3:40
where they feel that you as an employer
3:42
will be supportive of that but you will
3:44
understand that that you will deal with
3:46
that in the right way whether it comes
3:48
to time that they might need off the
3:49
support that they might need to be
3:51
understanding
3:53
and if we could all do that then that
3:55
will make a significant difference to
3:57
people going through and possibly
3:59
difficult situation so I will hand you
4:03
over to the expert
4:05
really know this area inside now but as
4:09
I say from the cipd's point of view if
4:11
what we can do is encourage the entire
4:13
profession to get better at this then we
4:16
know that there are real people
4:18
suffering that will benefit from this
4:20
over time thank you