hi i'm aggie matuma i run an
organisation called mahogany inclusion
partners as the name suggests we support
organizations on their inclusion
journeys
i am the author of this of the cipd
guide on how to talk about race at work
the importance of inclusion and the
awareness of race disparities in the
workplace and in society isn't new
as a society we don't tend to talk about
these topics do we um we tend to talk
about things that are less contentious
and we haven't really talked about race
in the way that we have over the last 18
months since the murder of george floyd
and the black lives matter protests
which highlighted for us and for many of
us the racial disparities which still
exist today in society and in the
workplace
we heard new topics a new language
didn't we around fragility and
anti-black racism maybe allyship and
white advantage
things that we hadn't really talked
about or heard about before
we heard about the pain of the black
community
and we heard a lot of these things and
maybe we felt feelings of guilt
confusion sadness
questions such as how can i be part of
the problem questions such as how has
this happened have been happening for so
long without me being aware without us
being aware
conversation started happening in the
workplace um about these topics and for
a lot of us they were difficult they
were uncomfortable um maybe at times
divisive
the relationship the conversation
because of our history with race it
sometimes invokes pain um it invokes
guilt like we said it involved invokes
lots of questions discomfort and
feelings of injustice which is why it's
sometimes really tough to talk about
which is why sometimes we don't have the
conversation
but as we know with any change
for it to start for it to happen it
starts with a conversation doesn't it it
starts with sharing perspectives it
starts with um sharing where we agree
and how we can move things forward
and the same as uh the same applies to
this conversation
if we handle it sensitively
conversations around race around
anything around racism can be liberating
they can connect us as people we can
share our experiences and we can also
share where we agree and how we can move
things forward and make this hopefully a
conversation of the past
talking about it can help us work
towards a fair and equal society
together
in writing the crpd guide for uh around
having conversations around around race
the aim was to help people professionals
to enable these conversations to happen
in the workplace
to start these conversations around how
different workplaces can look at their
own organizations how these concepts how
these theories how
racism and anti-racism works in their
own context and then move things forward
to help connect colleagues to help
develop strategies and
initiatives to deal with racism and
anti-racism in the workplace
so what we want to do now and what i'd
love to do now is to give you some
highlights of that guide so that you can
start thinking about it you can maybe
feel more comfortable to have these
conversations and hopefully start
working towards eradicating racism in
your workplace and around you because we
all have a part to play and one of the
things we can definitely start to do is
talk about it with the aim to eradicate
it
so as we think about having the
conversation around race it's really
important to sort of chunk it up into
three areas i would suggest
the first area that i'll focus on is
before you start the conversation
we'll then focus on during the
conversation and then we'll talk about
what you can do and think about after
the conversation
Before the conversation
so starting with before the conversation
it's really important that you prepare
for the conversation
and you can do this
if you're not familiar through training
courses which most organizations will
organize so feel free to speak to your
hr team and your line managers
sharing articles reading articles
perhaps webinars
and maybe looking at existing um
information that you have in your
organization
and the reason why that's important it's
around really understanding language for
starters because that's quite important
and so check google check um like we
said the articles and webinars podcasts
etc because language can be quite a
tricky one can't it changes you're not
sure what's right what's not right but
do it do a bit of research yourself and
understand what that what the current
language is
um and then also what i would suggest
also around language is listen to the
person in front of you you know
language is a very personal thing there
are lots of reasons why people may like
a certain term may not like a certain
term so while i say look into it
yourself and self-educate also listen to
the person in front of you if they say
no i don't like that term then take that
on board so absolutely before you have
the conversations have a bit of
understanding around language
also consider your own mindset as well
it's better to go into these
conversations with an open growth
mindset as opposed to a closed one
when we have different conversations
there's lots of ways you can have a
conversation aren't there you can debate
which is about um you know you're right
i'm wrong i'm going to prove you wrong
which is one way of speaking of
conversating you can have a conversation
which is about trying to convince
someone of something or you can have a
conversation which is about trying to
understand the other person when it
comes to these conversations i
definitely invite you to
have that in the place where you're
trying to understand the other person
have conversations around sharing
perspectives and trying to understand
what's going on for the other person
especially with this topic if you stick
to that side we're trying to understand
it's definitely going to be more
fruitful for you and more helpful for
you as well
and also um think about um not um coming
in with your own judgments so suspend
your judgments have that active
listening things that i know you know
already but definitely worth a reminder
i would also suggest um if you're having
these conversations in the workplace or
when you're having this conversation in
the workplace um speak to your hr team
maybe your manager your lnd team around
having some skilled facilitators who can
help you to have these conversations as
well
also we there are lots of um tools and
resources and advice as well available
on the anti-racism hub for the cipd
have a look at that you know this guide
is there too the how to talk about race
at work but there are many other things
around language and things like that i
can support you in that as well
so definitely do your homework do your
homework beforehand and and check up um
look up what you can
then um in the in the middle of the
conversations as we said um it's about
being open it's about being honest it's
about um
trying to understand the other person
and listening without that judgment as
well we all bring our own perspectives
to conversations don't we based on what
we've experienced
uh based on what we felt in the past and
based on maybe what our parents have
told us what we've seen around us
everybody has their own different
perspectives
when it comes to conversations a
conversation about race
look at where you are and what your
perspective is
if you are a person of color you're
probably going to have more experience
about what it feels like to feel racism
on a constant basis on a frequent basis
in different areas of your life than if
you are a white person so bearing that
in mind is is really really important
i often use the example of myself when i
think about conversations around the
lgbtq plus experience as an example
i go into that conversation knowing that
i'm here to learn i'm here to understand
other people's perspectives i'm here to
sort of broaden my own knowledge of
other people's experiences i wouldn't
necessarily go in there with you know
this is what i think or this is this is
my view because i know i haven't
experienced many things in in that
context so i encourage everyone when
we're thinking about a conversation with
race to also bear that in mind
The conversation
it's also important to ensure that the
conversation when you're having it is a
safe space for all parties involved
and what we mean by that is that a safe
space is a place where there is no
judgment we're not here to judge each
other we're here to understand each
other
we're not here to dismiss people's
experiences we're not going to say
things such as
maybe they didn't mean it or maybe it's
not racism or maybe you're just being
sensitive it's not about minimizing the
person's experience or trying to put our
own thoughts on it it's about
understanding and hearing hearing in
it's about creating a space where it's
safe to really talk about what you're
feeling what you're thinking and um get
that understanding
um so it's definitely around
everyone really um giving each other
space to to share but also
not having that judgment piece as well
where we're thinking about um having
these conversations as well i think one
word i would ask you to have at the
forefront of your mind this is one of
one of my favorite ones in in in general
anyway is compassion
and i would say compassion for the
person you're speaking to absolutely
because that's a fellow human who has
feelings emotions um thoughts
experiences pain hurts all these things
just as you do so you're there as a
fellow human beings
so compassion is really important and
i'd say compassion for yourself as well
it's likely that you'll get things wrong
and that's okay that is okay because you
know we're all learning and it's a
journey so definitely have compassion
for yourself i think the important thing
is that if you do get things wrong i'll
probably say when because most of us
will at some point in time when you do
get things wrong
you take the feedback if someone gives
it to you and you understand that but
equally you just sort of think right
i'll do better next time so have
compassion for yourself as well
and again depending on the conversation
you're having and when you're having it
and how you're having it some key things
to consider you know confidentiality
i'm sure i don't need to say it but i'll
say it anyway confidentiality is really
important
if someone opens up to you or i'll say
when again because i'm sure they will
when they open up to you and share these
uh you know tough conversations or tough
experiences it's really important that
that conversation stays between you or
between the remit of the conversation
you're having um so that's definitely
something that's really really um
important
as we've said we've got different
perspectives so really acknowledge that
and then also the fear piece very often
um we lose sight of the fact that the
conversation is uncomfortable and
difficult for you know everybody
involved in the conversation
uh for white people it's definitely
difficult in that this is quite new this
piece around um
privilege and you're either part of the
solution or you're part of the problem
and all these things it must feel quite
difficult to to be in that space
equally for people of color it's also
difficult to have the conversation
there is a misconception that you know
people of color life talking about
racism that really isn't the case for
most people the conversation around
shared experience comes with pain it
comes with upset it comes with trauma it
comes with all these things so the
conversation is difficult for all
parties
and i know that uh for white people and
for black people there are thoughts
around you know will i get it wrong will
will they
see what i'm saying as combative maybe
um will i offend someone so it's really
important to acknowledge that that's
happening on both sides so let's
acknowledge that acknowledge the fear
acknowledge their discomfort and like i
said um be compassionate to each other
um this is also about um when we're
talking using i statements so rather
than speaking on behalf of other people
i feel
i would like to understand um or help me
understand
conversations like that and also
definitely definitely understand that we
all have learning
it's a long journey um it's a beautiful
thing that we're taking it it's a
beautiful thing that we're considering
considering taking it at least but it is
a journey
and also i would say this conversations
um definitely seek shared meaning and
for all of us we have shared a lot of us
have shared values around justice and um
fairness and doing right and doing good
in the world and so when we might find
the conversation getting a bit difficult
or we might find ourselves a bit stuck
let's try to get back to that place of
shared meaning
so i think that's probably enough for
now around you know the actual
conversations i think things to think
about as well
but i think if you're considering
potential questions or discussions i'm
sure you have questions already that you
have in your mind or things that you
like to understand more
but you know i would suggest and i'm
going to give you one in in this context
um i would suggest you know a simple
question such as how are you
goes a long way
i've seen something something on the
news or i've heard this or i've seen
this happening how are you it's it's a
beautiful way to start the conversation
and so i suggest maybe maybe we um
you you start the conversation there
suggestion for you
Terminology
and then thinking about things that may
help the conversation um some
terminology you may have heard recently
that is quite new um i'll give you some
hints and tips around what that might
mean and what that means uh that that
can hopefully set you off so you can um
have a bit of an understanding around
those
so some terms that we've had lots of
questions around around what they mean
what is that
so anti-black racism
um anti-black racism is the specific
exclusion and prejudice against people
visibly or perceived to be of african
descent
um so you know we'd call them you know
black people people like me people like
myself so that's what anti-black racism
is and a lot of people focus on
anti-black racism because that tends to
be if you look at the data if you look
at the lift experience if you look at
the outcomes around
health education employment that tends
to be where the most disadvantage is and
the view is if you focus on the place
where the racism is the worst hopefully
you'll have a halo effect on the rest so
that's anti-black racism
then we have non-racist versus
anti-racist another question that comes
up i have a lot of leaders and
individuals asking what is anti-racism
why is it not okay just to not be racist
so non-racist behavior is not actively
engaging in behavior that is racist
it is also
not stopping racism so an example of a
non-racist
behavior is hearing a joke a racist joke
and saying nothing so you don't actively
engage but you say nothing
but the um concern that people have
sometimes with just not being racist or
saying nothing is the person who's told
that joke doesn't know maybe that
they've said something hurtful they
don't know that maybe
that is um that is unhelpful so
therefore they might go and do it again
and they probably will go do it again
because no one said actually have you
thought about how that might feel if you
heard that
an anti-racist however would hear that
joke and would have that conversation
around
have you thought about how that sounds
have you thought about how somebody
might feel if they heard that actually
that joke isn't helpful actually that
joke is is hurtful
because in being anti-racist in that
example the likelihood of that person
doing doing it again is reduced so
therefore your action is diminishing
racism so that's the difference and
that's why people sort of say it's
better to be anti-racist or we'd prefer
people to be anti-racist rather than non
non-racist allows racism to continue and
actually allows it to grow anti-racist
does something to hopefully do military
racism
there is a bite-sized video um called
non-racist versus anti-racist have a
look at that because i'll explain that
in a bit more detail for you
then we have white privilege stroke
white advantage so some call it
advantage some call it most call it
privilege actually
and this is something that a lot of
people have um difficulty with because
they feel um as though you know i've had
a tough life too how can i possibly have
privilege
um i'm happy to explain that to you
so privilege in this context is not
necessarily about being born with a
silver spoon in your mouth it's about
the absence of discrimination by virtue
of part of your identity
an example i'll give you is of myself
and give you two examples actually um
you can probably see that i'm a
christian well maybe not but i am a
christian i've got a cross on but i am a
christian so in the uk i have the
privilege of being a christian in that
um christmas easter you know days that
are huge in my faith i'm
off most people are off i can spend time
with my family i don't have to think
about getting time off work if i was of
a different faith um i would have to
think about getting time off for diwali
maybe ramadan maybe hanukkah maybe it's
it's different so there's privilege in
that respect
also i am not a wheelchair user so i
have a privilege there and that i can go
to the station train station
run up the stairs to a different
platform get on the train without
thinking about it if i was a wheelchair
user i would have to think about calling
ahead to see if i can get through onto
the platform's uh step free access i'd
need to probably get someone potentially
to have a ramp waiting for me to get on
and off the train so again two examples
of privilege
um that i have um as a christian and not
a wheelchair user so white privilege is
the same as the same concept it's the
absence of discrimination by virtue of
the color of your skin it's the absence
of um you know overt or covert
discrimination by virtue of the color of
your skin
and i think um as i sort of draw to an
end af of this video
i would like to say almost begin so end
where i began sorry which is it's
important to have the conversation
for change to happen for us to move um
forward for us to eradicate racism for
us to understand it first we need to
have these conversations
yes it's it's uh uncomfortable yes there
is fear yes we don't want to offend um
but if we can consider some of these
principles we've talked about in this
video
if we can uh consider getting that
training from our team from our um hr
teens
definitely the cipd anti-racism hub has
a lot on there we can definitely give
ourselves a level of comfort so we can
have these conversations and start
seeing how we as individuals can start
to eradicate racism
as we said before we all have a part to
play
and i hope that we choose to play a part
where we eradicate racism
thank you

at times i felt
uh very sad um and very lost
in what's happening or what i perceive
to be happening in the world
um there's no doubt that the public
lynching of george floyd bless his soul
was one that has left many of us
indelibly marked
um you know eight minutes and 46 seconds
is a fact and it's a fact because george
had his life taken away from him in real
time and it was filmed and it was
broadcast
around the world and so for those of us
with a heart that beats
we can't help but be impacted by that in
some way and on some level it was just
so brutal
um and also knowing that it's happening
because this person happens to be black
and
i'm black and i've got black family
males
um my partner my dad my brothers
um and then also explaining it to my
children as well because
obviously out there so much they're
asking questions you know
mommy why do they do that or why did he
do that to him and
do people really hate us because just
because we're black
and having to have a conversation with
your 10 year old
about her being hated i mean what 10
year olds can even contemplate
being hated and so it was tough it was
really really hard
but i'm mixed race so
my mother's white my father's black my
father's jamaican
and so i consider myself whilst i
consider myself to be a black person a
person of color
i can't ignore what i wish to distance
the white parts of who i am
but whenever i see in what i believe to
be
racial injustice it's very very
saddening
it's very very saddening and
in terms of the the black lives matter
protests that
followed as a consequence of the george
floyd killing
um i have to say i was
very supportive and pride
not just because there were people of
color protesting but actually i think as
we saw across the world across the globe
there were almost as many people
not of color protesting
and i think that filled me with a degree
of hope i
didn't realize how upset and
deeply deeply disturbed and challenged i
would be
at the at how cruel
how cruel human beings can be
to each other and how cruel and i'm part
of that
how cruel we can be as human beings to
one another
i didn't realize how much it would hit
me it kept me awake at night
and it's not that i haven't seen or
learned of such tragedy in the past it's
not that
but for some reason this one it was like
yet again
again and the ripple effect
of what happened across the world
and the people shouting and standing up
and saying this has got to stop
it's just an indication of how inhumane
we can be
so i i have to say i started asking
myself
we've got to stand up we've got to do
more we've got to do
more it's time to stop
saying oh what a shame i actually broke
down in tears on a team meeting so it
was a
team's video a virtual call and there
are about nine or ten of us and
you know i've been just dealing with it
bottling it up as we do as you do
um and somebody asked a question and i
just
wasn't floods of tears and it was very
embarrassing
but also good in that i guess i let the
outpour information just really helped
and i was able to then start dealing
with it
and start thinking about it differently
um
and i think once people started talking
about it people outside of the black
race which is the only place the
conversation usually happens
and there were shows of support and
people wanting to know more
people wanting to help and people even
just expressing their oh my gosh i can't
believe this happens to you i'm sorry
this happens to you and this happens to
your people
was just beautiful i guess it's probably
the best thing so it's quite cathartic
it was
nice to see the you know the black
squares on set on social media and
yes a lot of people might not do
something with it past that but at least
that show of
support was really important really
cathartic and i think
the conversations i've been had since
then of which this is one
um also cathartic and actually moving us
towards
healing

equality um and specifically for this
conversation interaction equality
the evidence is there you know we quote
mckenzie a million times
but that same mckinsey report that we
quote to
talk about gender empowerment and gender
equality
that same report talks about ethnicity
equality and empowerment but actually
the numbers for ethnicity
um in terms of what it contributes to
the bottom line are bigger you know i
think
the female um and addition to bottom
line is about 20 through 24
and the ethnicity one's about 33 35
so it's interesting where the data is
there the information is there
the data and inequality is there but
it's just we have just decided as a
professional
royally to focus on gender we've got to
bring measurement
we've got to follow it we've got to look
at what we're doing in our own teams
we've got to look at where we network
and then we've got to look at how we
influence the businesses we're in
because a lot of times the organizations
that we work in
are making decisions that not only
impact the individuals in them
but but they are making decisions that
impact those individuals families
the communities that they that they're
operating in and much further afield
i would love for our profession to be
representative of
the nation um so if we're talking about
the profession in london
it would be probably about 35 to 40
percent fame
um you would have people with um
disabilities you'd have you know lgbt
plus
um community within that you know it's a
truly representative of the nation and
the people that we serve
um and i think i would love for hr to
get there first but people profession to
get there first because again we are the
custodians aren't we
and then for that to then also spread
out to the rest of the professionals as
well
um and i'd love to see the profession
when we talk about diversity if we're
talking about someone being a champion
for diversity or an organization being
great for diversity
it's not we're not just talking about
one aspect of diversity we're talking
about diversity
in its in its entirety