Nigel Cassidy: The pressure is on to deliver more workplace learning. So, if you can't just work any harder, could you work smarter? I’m Nigel Cassidy and this is the CIPD podcast.
Now learning and development types probably don't need the CIPD's latest survey to tell them that training workloads are through the roof. Yes, staffing and budgets have gone up a bit, but learning and development teams find they still need to boost their capacity to keep up with the insatiable demand. How can you deliver yet more learning in the face of competing priorities, time constraints and the sheer complexity of organisations? All potential barriers to plugging those skills gaps. Well hopefully we're going to get a lot of tips on how to do all this. With us, a talented learning partner at Starbucks who in the past has also worked at Marks and Spencer and HSBC, she says her job is about building a culture of everyday learning, so people bring their authentic selves to work. It's Sonali Narendran. Hello.
Sonali Narendran: Hi.
NC: Laura Overton is an award -winning independent learning analyst, speaker and facilitator. Her focus, among other things, is on practical ideas to make learning more effective for a business. And Laura's the founder of consultancy Learning Changemakers. Hello.
Laura Overton: Hello everyone.
NC: And from the home team a welcome return to the podcast for Andy Lancaster, CIPD's head of learning. He's an author and noted speaker with more than 30 years experience, spreading the word about creative learning, design and delivery. Hello Andy.
Andy Lancaster: Yep, great to be here and also great to welcome all the other guests on this one, looking forward to the time together.
NC: So, Andy, workloads really increasing and that does put the pressure on sometimes.
AL: It does, but I think what the Learning at Work Survey 2023 shows very clearly is there's some brilliant opportunities for learning professionals, but with those opportunities come some challenges. So, if we think about private sector organisations, we're seeing some real opportunities and challenges around and growth and productivity and reduction of costs. And if we think about what the report shows us around public sector organisations, there's a real priority around skills shortages and how we develop skills, organisational culture and those kind of things. So, I think there's a brilliant opportunity and I think sometimes it's really important that we frame this in the context of the contribution and the impact that learning professionals can have. And what clearly the survey is showing is there are workload increases, but these are linked to very practical things we can do to have a real impact on the context that we're working in.
NC: And Sonali, if we think of the skills that anybody would need to serve us well in a coffee shop, there's an awful lot to learn in a short time, I would guess, if you take somebody on. So how do you ensure that you're imparting those skills in the best way?
SN: Definitely, it is a complex job. I mean, God, if I were ever a barista, I don't know if the coffee shop is going to run for very long or not because it is such a difficult job. But one thing that I have seen us do brilliantly well is upskill our baristas and our store managers and our shift supervisors and thinking about how is it that, you know, they feel absolutely confident, but also motivated every day to come in and do a fabulous job. So, we have a combination of two things. So, there is a digital platform that ensures that our skills training for our baristas is scalable. And we lean into gamification a lot because that helps and that has shown evidence of how learning is retained and also been able to apply it in practice. But then on the other hand, there is there is a very, very structured development path that is, that is crafted and shared with all levels across our store operations. And that ensures that everyone is really clear about their responsibility. What are the skills that are required for them to do their job brilliantly well and how are those skills developed? So, I think it's a two pronged approach and that combination is serving us really well.
NC: Well, this is good news, isn't it, Laura? Because if we think of the skills shortages in organisations and across the UK, the skills gap, this more sophisticated way of working is what we need.
LO: Absolutely. And it's one of the things that we picked up on in the work report. It's just how we're applying really sensible evidence informed strategies into our practice. And Sonali, you just really helped us to see that you helped us to show how your baristas have been kind of, the kind of a framework and a purpose so they understand where they're going, they understand how they're going to get there. They have the opportunity to practice, they have the opportunity to pick up new knowledge, they have opportunity to reflect, they have opportunity to contribute. And these are all the kinds of evidence and practices that really deliver impact. That's the bottom line of it. And I think that's one of the things that we really need to focus on is to get away from learning and development as being producers of programs and content that people have to consume to creating the kind of experiences that Sonalia has just described that will allow us to kind of practice and become those people, become those skilled people, not just know about them, not just talk about them.
NC: I think, look, Laura, I think there's a really good pickup from what you've both said there that under work pressure, sometimes we need to simplify and not get more complex. And I think this takes me back to, you know, scaffolding learning theory, which, you know, is an old principle but we look about how do we engage learners interest? How do we provide clear instructions, clear goals? How do we allow people to practice, spaced repetition, which we know is one of the most important things for skills development.
AL: So, I think Nigel, if we think about this whole area here, whilst workload might be going up, there are some very practical and simple things we can do to deliver really effective solutions, as Sonali has said, but maybe one of the skills we need as learning professionals here is to step back, think and simplify the processes. The over kind of complex just doesn't always deliver for us.
SN: And if I can also add, Andy, because sometimes it does happen that the next new shiny technology is what takes your interest. And I feel just thinking back to some of my previous experiences and now at Starbucks, I think in the past, I've seen organisations really over complicating the whole skills framework. And I think they've gone on the complete other end of the spectrum. At Starbucks, we absolutely see the opportunity to, yes, it's very simple, maybe is it too simple? So, I think we do have an opportunity there, but luckily, we're not struggling with it being so complex that no one's able to navigate it. So, I feel like it's also being really cautious about which technology would serve you. And do you really always need technology? I think we're back in the world where connection is so important, and especially in a store operation environment. I think it is about what partners learn from each other and how they get motivated, coached, encouraged by their store manager. And I think you need time and space and connection for that. And of course, needless to say, when you think of what it looks like in a support center or leadership space, you have to completely pivot and think about, again, very creative, simple ways of how you engage those learners because they have different challenges.
NC: Right. So, Laura Oton, I did notice in this survey that the use of external training supplies has fallen a bit. Is that one reason why internal departments maybe are a bit overworked?
LO: To be honest, I actually don't think it's because we are using less external departments that give giving us this opportunity for overwork. I actually think it's because, you know, since the pandemic, the demand for learning has just gone through the roof. I think one of the things that the study shows is that business priorities are all linked to growth productivity, How do we build new skills to be relevant for the future? Are people priorities? How do we keep people? How do we retain people? How do we think about succession planning? It all points to the skills issue. And often the learning and development departments are asked for more and more courses and content. Last time we did the study two years ago, and if you remember, you know, sort of our workloads were going up by something like 50% and it's the same again. So, this is something that's really, really important for us is to how do we manage that? I'm just so pleased, Sonali, that you're here as well, because it's like, you know, has this been an issue for you as well?
SN: I would say that, yes, the workloads have been going up. And one of the reasons why I was fascinated by this topic and by all of these reports, whether it's the CIPD report or the LinkedIn Learning Workplace report, I think all of them are talking about some very, very important and critical behaviours and trends that are coming up. And the reality is that the world's not going to slow down. The reality is that the war for talent is not getting any better. And the reality is that we are moving much faster than we have in the past. So how do we stay agile and nimble and creative and clever in the way we think about capacity and in the way we think about how we manage workloads for ourselves as learning professionals is something that really fascinates me.
NC: And can I just ask you, Sonali, in practical terms, we know that coffee shops had a hard time during the pandemic. Turnover staff can be quite high. So, what does kind of pressure mean to you?
SN: For us, it is thinking about how do we elevate the partner experience end to end. I think that is the critical thing. It isn't so much about one aspect or one component of a partner life cycle. By the way, I should clarify that at Starbucks, we are all called partners and not employees or colleagues. So, it is important for us to understand and not look at learning in isolation. And then equally at the same time, be very mindful and aware of what is the kind of workforce that is joining the organization because that varies quite significantly between what we see in the stores versus what we see in the support centres. And just the fact that we've got multi -generations working in and across the organization, it is the bigger challenge for us as learning is how do you ensure you're catering to these different kinds of learning requirements and learning needs and preferences. So, the pressure is high in terms of how we respond to that. But like I was saying before, Nigel, it needs to be, we need to be more end -to -end holistic in our approach and in our design, rather than just thinking that learning is going to be the silver bullet.
NC: Okay, so Andy, we've got this pressure. People will feel it in different ways, won't they? So how would you suggest people start by kind of deciding what they ought to be doing, which I guess may not be necessarily what senior managers think they should be doing?
AL: Well, I think the evidence from the report is really clear that if you look at what the priorities are in terms of organisations and businesses and learning professionals, there is a synergy with those things. So, I think to pick up on Sonali's point, I think we're looking at what are the key drivers here? Now, if we look at the actual stats here, and I think evidence-based learning is really important for us, improved customer services right up there, productivity, how do we now improve organisational cultures? So, I'm not sure Nigel, there is a disconnect between senior leaders and learning teams. I think that is very much narrowed. And I think for me, the pandemic, there are not many good things that have come out of the pandemic. But one of those was a laser focus for learning departments during that season, whether it be for someone like Sonali working in that customer facing more kind of hospitality, or whether you're working in healthcare or manufacturing, the pandemic clearly laser focused what we need to do in terms of our learning provision. So, I think starting off with where the business is going, where the organisation is going, is really important. It's also interesting in there as well, Nigel, just looking at some of the statistics around this, some of the things that learning professionals are picking up on as being a starting point, staff retention, not only finding great staff, but keeping great staff. Well-being is way up there. I'm not sure well-being would have been as high on our agenda now. Succession planning, those kind of things, developing leadership. So, I think that the data we have here shows quite clearly that there are some key organisational drivers, and that is the starting point. I mean, the moment we maybe want to come on to what we can actually do in terms of our practice. But I think for those listening in, the key thing is we need to look at the organisation is doing. I think Sonali has framed that so brilliantly around what that means at Starbucks, and I think every organisation now we are getting better at understanding what the organisation needs.
NC: Andy, you're quite right. We'll get onto those practicalities very soon. But just while we're talking about some of the findings in the survey, I just want to put something else to Laura. And that is the question of training effectiveness. I mean, there's no point in showing you've put more people through on the same budget if they haven't retained anything. I was shocked to see that just 8% of those surveyed were prioritising speeding up the transfer of learning into the workplace. I mean, what is the point of any training if it doesn't have a positive outcome, Laura?
LO: No, we all want to make a contribution to positive outcomes. And I think the challenge has been is that we've been prioritising the input into that learning process. We prioritise what kind of content, what kind of programmes, what kind of initiatives... We're giving people and we were really deliberate this year in asking questions about what happens across the whole of the learning process. What happens when you go back to work and it's really clear from the statistic that you picked up is that that's not a key for us right now. But we're looking at this big skills agenda about really changing the way that individuals, teams and organisations are able to adapt and be agile to changing customer requirements and changing environments. Then we really do need to start to look at some of those ways of extending learning transfer. So yes, it's shocking, but Nigel, that's the point of a report. The point of a report is, let’s stimulate some conversation. Do we mind that it's this low? Is it representative of our organisation? Are we doing something in one project, but we're not doing it across all projects? These are the types of conversations that we hope this kind of report will stimulate in the community. So, thank you for raising that one. There's a whole chapter on how we can improve our impact on that and how we can work with others as well. So hopefully we will dig into what the statistics say, not just home in on one of them, but it's good to be able to stimulate our own thinking, challenge our own thinking and learning transfer is certainly an area that the report has highlighted that we need to think a little bit more deeply about.
NC: Just to reiterate, we're talking here about the CIPD Learning at Work Survey 2023 and people can find that online. Sonali, you've been listening patiently to all that. How does this chime with your experience of trying to deliver the most bangs for your Starbucks?
SN: Yes, yes, I know.
NC: See what I did there? Bangs for your Starbucks.
SN: I love that. Actually, I mean, I absolutely agree with everything Laura was saying. And this has become quite an important point of discussion and debate within my team as well. And as we are sort of working and brainstorming what our learning and talent strategy would be for next year. But more importantly, really questioning ourselves on how are we measuring impact? I think gone are the days when we rely on Kirk Patrick's four -stage model of measuring training effectiveness. And I personally, I'm quite averse to the word training effectiveness myself, so it's understanding how is impact being measured. And one of the things that I can see us doing a lot more of now as compared to my experience with HSBC or with M&S, is having really purposeful conversations with our business leaders, especially around their people strategy. That's your starting point. And that's where the connection and collaboration needs to happen with the business and learning to understand, what are the drivers for the business? And then how is learning going to contribute and support that to be able to assess and evaluate impact? I genuinely think we need to reframe our ways of measuring impact because if we are going to continue to be looking at bums on seats, then I think we are doing ourselves a disservice. Plus, also there's unnecessary pressure on us because we are not transferring the responsibility or accountability of development and learning to the individual, to the business, to the manager and it's continuing to stay with learning when that is not how it should be.
NC: OK, Andy Lancaster, let's go into a bit more detail then. You've already mentioned how COVID kind of changed overnight, how we do things. Could you talk a bit more about how you move on when you're under these capacity pressures, if you like?
AL: And this kind of links in and the thread continues about learning impact. So, it's not just pain, it's opportunities as well. That's the starting point we go from. And I think when we are immersing ourselves in those things, there is a natural fallout in terms of being able to see how learning and development is impacting the business. You know, I think how we get better at this, I think asking great questions is really important around this. I think, here's an example, so I'm just recovering from shoulder surgery. So, when I went in with the initial injury, my GP asked some very good questions of what was going on, what were the symptoms, how this had happened. So, it wasn't me telling him, can I have some painkillers? This was very much a holistic approach, really good questions. And he actually ended up diagnosing that it actually needed surgery. So, I think that diagnostic piece is really important. So, I think the first thing we're seeing and we're encouraging learning professionals is to really think through the presenting problem or presenting opportunity. And invariably, this is actually part of a more complex issue. So, we're talking about employee propositions or retention, those kind of things. This is part of a bigger thing. We need to recognize that we are systemic workers. We're not just the L &D team. We're part of a bigger people team, and we're part of bigger people processes. So, I think great questions. And in that diagnosis, it's really important to understand, is this a matter of knowledge transfer? Is this a matter of skills that we need to develop? A really important thing from the survey is highlighting that skills is a big agenda for most organisations. Is it a motivational issue? Is it a resourcing issue or an environmental issue? So, I think us being able to ask really, really good questions is really important. And that's about what do we need to do now? What do we not need to do? And I think, Nigel, in terms of workload as well, we have to sometimes say no to things. Now, there has to be some clear prioritization that we align with the business and say, these are the real clear priorities.
NC: OK, I get all that. There are so many ways of delivering our learning now. Laura, can you talk a bit about finding the right blend, if you like? I mean, obviously a lot of people have moved over to hybrid working, to everything online, very little classroom learning in some places, but if you're trying to, again, get the most value, how do you kind of work out whether you've got the right mix?
LO: I cannot emphasise enough how important that is, but we also have to believe that our response to what we find out is going to be appropriate as well. Do we believe that we're going to be delivering value back into the organisation? And that means being curious about what's going on around us and then being curious about how we can respond to that in the most appropriate way. And there's a lot in this report that looks at technology and it looks at the ways that we're using technology and the way that we're using classroom and the way that we're using secondments and the ways that we're using apprenticeships and opportunity to practice back into the workplace. And as Andy says, you know, these solutions potentially are, need to be a systemic solution, one that goes across the whole of the organisation. So, it's not about creating programmes of training and content anymore, whether it's classroom, blended, hybrid, it's about creating the opportunity to learn a new skill. And that's where I'm very excited about what the report is kind of starting to flag and highlight for us. I think the question about is this blended, is this hybrid, is the wrong question to be asking. Because in most of our minds, what that means is, how do I blend face to face with online?
That's the wrong approach. That's the wrong lens to look at. What we need to be thinking about, how do we blend opportunities to learn from each other? How do we blend opportunities to practice? How do we blend opportunities to reflect and engage? How do we blend opportunities to find the thing that we need, just at the point that we need it? How do we blend opportunities to share back into the organisation? That I think is where we're going to really start to see skills, initiatives really take off and we're starting to see glimmers of that. Sonali, you're nodding quite a lot there. Does any of that resonate with what you're doing at the moment?
SN: Oh my God, every single word, Laura, because this is the other thing that I'm trying to really dial up in the way we are positioning what we do as a centre of excellence or just the fact that how we see ourselves as true enablers to business performance and individual excellence is about impact. It's about value and it is about how, I mean, how could you imagine the different channels in the ways you can create that, whether, you know, someone prefers to use 70, 20, 10, whether someone prefers to use a different sort of hybrid or virtual or face to face, whatever that language is for you. I think the key thing is what is the learning experience and impact that is delivering, right? So, I think one of the really big things that I have been focusing on and I know at Starbucks is really important is this whole concept of experience. We have moved away from calling ourselves a training provider or learning provider or, you know, here are some workshops. I mean, yes, tactically, that's some of the language you would use. But in our narrative, it's all about experience, whether that be careers, whether that be development, whether that be performance, it is all thinking about creative experiences that enable learning, sharing, collaboration, challenge, provocation, and design thinking, new ideas, experimentation. That is really the crux of it because I am so with you that gone are the days when we, and I just feel like that's a debate that is so per-se now about whether it should be hybrid or whether it should be face to face.
AL: It's really energizing for me to hear about that human-centered approach, Sonali. I mean, I think this is, and this comes back to the key theme about we have got more work pressures, we've got more to deliver but that learner-centered approach is so important because without that we're guessing sometimes at what we need to do.
NC: Do you think sometimes organisations, or do you think learning departments think they're learner-centered but actually they aren't?
AL: Yes, I think just the same as customer-focused organizations think they're customer-focused and they aren't. You know, what I think Sonali has highlighted quite importantly is that here is that learning teams are making this shift and we see this quite widely now that there is a much more learner-centred focus here. So, if we come back to the theme, the report is showing that the workload is high. It is so important, so important that we know that what we're going to deliver is really going to scratch the itch or is really going to meet those needs. So, I think, yes, Nigel, I think we can go further, but I think the evidence would be over the last few years and perhaps the pandemic has helped us in this. We are more business aligned. We are more sensitive to what the business needs. We are more sensitive to what the learners need and that can only be a good thing in terms of really laser focusing the efforts we make to really have the maximum impact.
SN: I'm very conscious that to move our listeners might be thinking, well, it's easy for you to say that we don't talk about hybrid or don't talk about face to face, but that is my practical challenge, right? That's what I'm facing into every day. But believe me, we were there. I mean, we're not completely out of it. We're still in that phase of, Andy might remember, I'd use the word, it's the year of experimentation on one of our calls before. And that is the whole point of it, that can we be brave enough as learning professionals to give ourselves some space to try our different things? And if we take a particular piece of content or experience and try and do it in a few different ways to then figure out where is the best impact, where is the best value, rather than getting sort of stuck and going down a rabbit hole to say, oh, I just need to do this face to face, I just need to do this virtual. So all I would say is that it's not to say it's not an issue. I think it's about thinking, how do you experiment to try different ways to find what's the best solution?
NC: And Laura, there is tendency as we sort of talk about this, to think this is still learning and development people delivering a service to achieve whatever the aims of the training should be. But of course, it's all about galvanising managers. I'm sure Sonali might have something to say about this. How can you kind of tell if you're getting the right and enough support from line managers, from people on the ground? So, you're not doing learning in a vacuum.
LO: I think it's really interesting that you've kind of phrased it that way, because certainly in the research that I've been
NC: I’m in trouble again.
LO: (Laughs) No, I love it. The way that you phrased it is, how do we think we're getting the right support? You know what, I'd like to flip that. How do we give the right support to managers? And that's the question I think this report has kind of been generating for me and certainly the research and the evidence that's been surfacing through CIPD and other research over the years is how to equip my managers to be able to support their teams better. Nigel, I really enjoyed the podcast that you did with colleagues on the role of line managers and how the kind of pressures that line managers are under. It was so powerful. And if we think we've just got to give them another thing to do, add on more learning on top of more recruitment, on top of more wellness, on top of more, and on top of their day job, it's just craziness. So, we do need to rethink how we support line managers. And Sonali, I just want to pick up on you saying about, you know, we need to experiment. We need to sit down and say, look, this is the problem we're all trying to work on. What can I do? What are you already doing? How can I help you? How can we join up the dots? And I think that that's the opportunity that we have and this report highlights. Certainly, we've seen that those business leaders who value the learning contribution of learning and development professionals in this report. What we're actually seeing is we are seeing more experimentation, we're seeing more support of managers, we're seeing more co -working with managers, we're seeing more use of broad ranges of technology to start helping us to address some of these challenges that technology isn't just about content and administration, but it's about how we make connections and maybe take off some of the pressure of all of us in this learning journey. So, I don't think Nigel, we should be saying, how can we get more from them? But how can we help them do their jobs smarter and better? And as a result, also do our jobs smarter and better as well.
NC: Okay and Andy Lancaster, if the workload is high, as we said at the beginning, clearly L&D professionals need to be at the top of their game. So, I just wonder whether you've got any thoughts on what should be on people's personal professional development plans?
AL: So, I think for us, there's no one thing you can say here. I think what we need to do is very contextual here. And I think I just want to throw in the mix here that reflection is really important. I think where we see organisations that are doing well in terms of learner-centred design, in terms of tracing impact and driving impact, I think there's a real reflective practice in here, which is part of not only the learning process, but also part of managers working on this as well. So, the starting point for each of us is a really good self -assessment and reflection on what we need. And it's very easy just to throw things out like, well, AI is really important and there are some truths around technology. But it isn't just about AI for some people. You know, certain organisations have very different priorities. So, I think it is for each team, for each professional to be very reflective and that needs to be linked very much to where the strategy is at. So, I think the advice we would give on creating great professional development plans to any member of staff is it starts with really strong reflection. I think as professionals, we need to get a bit better at that. And I think as well, the workload sometimes cuts across that because reflection requires us to take time. So, I think for each of us it is stepping back and recognizing what we need to do ourselves and there may be technologies around this, but I think there's a whole range of other things. And I'm just really heartened that we're talking about learner-centered design, human-centered design. There's a lot of thinking around that, brilliant thinking from design sectors around this, and if only we grasp that more. So, yet, reflective practice, Nigel, is my starting point on this one. We've all got to get much better at really understanding our own scenarios and our own needs.
NC: So, trying to draw this to a close to and Sonali Narendran, from your own experience at Starbucks, what would you say are the most useful things you can do to be delivering more effective learning development?
SN: I would actually share some very, very practical tools that our listeners can either look up or they might be using a version or those tools themselves. For me, the most fundamental going back to design thinking is opening every conversation with the question, what problem are we trying to solve? None of my conversations, I can't remember if they've ever started without that question because that gets me to really hone in to what is the crux of the situation and where should we be focusing rather than talking about everything under the sun. And of course, that then sort of branches out in different directions. The second one again linked to some very specific methods. My favorite, some of my favorite methods that I have been using for some time now are retrospective. Now, retrospective is a tool that lots of people would be using, but it is, it's a really, really helpful tool to think about how are we doing and where are we going, and it just helps again have a very focused and structured conversation. But looking at some of the prioritisation tools that are available and thinking about how you could use them and going back to Andy's point around technology is, are we even leveraging some of the simple collaboration tools that are available to us so that we are, we are running most effective meetings, and our conversations are really productive and meaningful and have a bias to action around it. And the last one is something that I actually personally started a year ago, and it has helped a great deal is what I call my big bets for every quarter. And my big bets for every quarter arrive from whether that be our talent discussions, whether that be discussion with the business, and it is then ensuring you, you know, sharing and socialising with the right stakeholders to communicate that and to ensure that what you're doing are the right priorities and, and also then helping me and my team to stay focused and not feel like overwhelmed and that we are doing, you know, so many different things but not really driving the right impact.
NC: Brilliant. Thank you for that. Laura Overton, some of what Sonali said very much chimes with something I've heard you say about what people ask for and what they actually need.
LO: Yes, that's a good thing. I'm often asked what would you like to drink Laura? I want to say of course I would love a glass of wine, what I actually need is eight glasses of water a day and I think Nigel, what we ask for as learning professionals is often, oh we need more money, I need more technology, I need more budget, I need more, my headcount but what we actually need is to drink that water every day. We need to reflect as Andy said we need to try things out, we need to be retrospective and be able to think forward. We need to ask the right questions. They need to be cognizant of just doing that basic, keeping hydrated on good practice and being aware and cognizant of what we are doing ourselves as a community and I think that's the thing that really is kind of missing. We are cobbler’s children when it comes down to building our own skills and we need to start to drink the basics, experiment on ourselves if we can’t experiment on anyone else. Let's try new things and let's see whether or not we can really bring our sharpest, smartest selves to the workplace.
NC: Brilliant. Well, thanks to our trio, Laura Overton, founder of Learning Changemakers, Sonali Narendran from Starbucks and the CIPD’s Andy Lancaster. Next month, would you believe, it's the 200th CIPD podcast. Yes, 200 and not out. So please subscribe where you get your podcast, so you don't miss that milestone or any other edition as it's published. But for now, that's our 199th done and dusted from Nigel Cassidy, and all of us at CIPD. It's goodbye.
