Nigel Cassidy (NC): People with past criminal convictions are a proven source of loyal, capable employees. So, what has to be done to bring more safely into our workplaces? I'm Nigel Cassidy and this is the CIPD Podcast.
Now thousands of talented and capable former offenders leave prison every year, yet only one in five will find a job within 12 months. It's a vast talent pool, but one which is stigmatised and shut out by outdated hiring practices. Pioneers in this field, like Timpson, Green King and some in the rail and construction industries, have shown a way. Take on a prison leaver and you'll invariably find they're quick to learn skills, have a strong work ethic and will stay in the job for a long time. I mean employers surely know by now that they really should be offering people these second chances. What they may not know is how.
With me, three people who are all breaking down the barriers to the fair recruitment and successful employment of people with convictions. Alison Bell is People and Communications Director at Project Leaders, a career HR leader who played a key role in employee relations, delivering the Elizabeth Rail line. She's a strong supporter of rehabilitating ex-offenders in prisons, sits on an employment advisory board, and campaigns through her networks. Hi Alison.
Alison Bell (AB): Hello Nigel.
NC: Sally Eley heads the CIPD Trust. She's behind numerous initiatives to galvanise HR people to make changes to boost prison leaver employment and support. Hello Sally.
Sally Eley (SE): Hi Nigel, lovely to be here.
NC: And also with us, Jacob Hill, who has served time in prison. He's now founder and MD of Offploy, a consultancy that aids offenders to find meaningful work and advises businesses with all the compliance, help, and support they need to allay their concerns and make successful placements. Hello.
Jacob Hill (JH): Hi Nigel, thanks for having me.
NC: Well, Jacob, I'll start with you. I mean, it's the elephant in the room. You did spend time in the prison system. So, I wonder, I mean, how did that happen? And how did what you experienced sort of motivate you to do what you're doing now?
JH: I mean, you never go to school, college, university like I did and assumed that you're going to end up in prison. It's always me or us and them, isn't it? It's always bad people go to prison. I started a business when I was 19. It got all sorts of accolades and awards. And I even got £300,000 investment at such a young age, but didn't get the sales. It all went wrong and I made a regretful choice instead of asking for help to ultimately sell drugs, I was arrested and sentenced to 28 months in prison. My mum is a police officer and my dad is a retired drugs investigator. So, for my family, you know, they never expected me to go to prison in life. They had their own perceptions of it all but yet they were the first people to pick me up from the police station to support me. Being in prison, lots of desperate people, rarely very bad people in there that want to come out, want that opportunity, but don't think they're good enough for it. So, this was why I started Offploy, hopefully using some of my connections, privilege and experience to help people like me go on to secure employment and that's why we do what we do.
NC: Yeah, well, quite a story. Sally, I'd love to know why working with organisations to employ ex-offenders strikes such a chord with you.
SE: For me, I think probably since I met Jacob, which was quite a long time ago now, I've been really inspired by the fact that there are loads of people in prison who deserve to be in jobs, living normal lives. And since then, I've really been passionate about what can I do to help make that happen because anyone of us can get into that situation and wouldn't we want people to help us. We know that having a job and my stuff is around work, I guess, can make all the difference there. So, that’s why I'm passionate about getting involved in this area.
NC: And I'm guessing that's inspired the way you've kind of structured the work you do with other HR people to try and make more of that happen.
SE: Yeah, it's about inspiring them. And the work that we do in this area can be a real antidote for the more difficult areas of their job, the more mundane, horrible, hard bits. It's really inspiring to help someone. It might be hard work as well, but if you can help someone get into a job, you know, get over that hurdle, you yourself are going to feel good and so there is a real win-win about it. And I feel like I'm a salesperson myself. I'm always selling that to HR professionals but I see it time and time again, the reward that it gives them, as well as, obviously, those that we're trying to support.
NC: Well, Alison Bell is one such senior HR professional. I mean, you must have a vast amount on your plate in the day job. Why have you got more involved in all this kind of work?
AB: Nigel, I'm quite passionate about giving back to society. I think I'm very privileged, and I've been given a lot of opportunities and not everybody in society is that lucky. And so, I would like to be able to give back to as many people as possible to support them with that and through this opportunity, through the CIPD, I've got involved in an employment advisory board and been able to do just that, and it is amazing the difference you can make by giving just a little bit of time and effort.
NC: And just very briefly, on that board, what sort of things do you do?
AB: So, I'm really introducing the board to my network. I've got a number of people, so whether that be HR professionals or senior leaders in a number of different industries and trying to just really champion getting workplaces to look at employing ex-offenders. The other thing that we're looking at doing is supporting them with writing CVs and doing interview skills. So, something that might be quite easy to you or me isn't something that comes naturally to a lot of ex-offenders. And so, just spending a little bit of time with them, writing their CV, giving them some experience of doing some interviews, can really help them on that journey to finding a job.
NC: So, we should be clear, this board is in a prison?
AB: Yes, yes, absolutely. You go into the prison and meet with a number of staff, including the governor, and work with the employment advisory team, who do a fantastic job. The employment advisory lead at the prison that I'm at works really, really hard, but can only do so much because she doesn't necessarily have the networks that I have and other HR professionals. And that's where I think we can really come in and support and help them connect with the outside world and outside organisations.
NC: Well, you're talking about support there. We're going to focus a fair bit in this podcast on the compliance, the details, the concerns, all the things that an employer might need to understand before they can employ more people who may have had convictions. But I just want to ask each of you briefly, just to give me your angle on why employing a prison leaver may be helpful for your business, Jacob.
JH: When looking at it, you look at the hearts and the minds to start with. The hearts are-speak to any individual, the conviction, and you're no longer talking about the people with convictions, the 12.6 million, you bring it to life. So, my advice is that we all might have a naughty nephew or we might all be worried about a person in our life that has a criminal conviction. The hearts part is that it can happen to any of us. Give someone with a conviction the chance time of day just to speak to them and understand where they've come from and why they're applying for your role.
But the minds part of it all, Nigel, is very much around the talent gap and the retention, and challenges employers are facing. So, there's one in four adults of working age with a conviction. That is a huge talent pool to take from, but your policies and processes are probably blocking people there and the retention element is that, you know, Timpson sees 74% retention of their justice cohort after 12 months, that's retail, that's a challenging environment with high turnover. So, it's about retention, it's about filling vacancies, but ultimately it's about considering individuals on a case by case. That's the benefits.
NC: Because, I mean, Sally, I mean, clearly it is socially responsible. It may be part of an organisation's equality, diversity and inclusion agenda. But I mean, are there really reasons beyond that that you can point to to sceptical employers?
SE: Absolutely. I mean, a lot of employers have skills gaps, skills gaps that they find hard to fill, and so this is a way of looking at a wider talent pool that you maybe haven't considered before to uncover that talent. And it's not necessarily obvious how you go about that, but there's loads of help out there through, I mean, we ourselves have provided, produced a guide about supporting employers who want to take on people with convictions. How do you go about it? What do you, you know, how are you going to make it successful?
So, there are practical things you can do and as Jacob's alluded to, the retention rates are often far higher. I mean, Timpson’s, as you've mentioned, Gregg's as well report exactly the same; they have a higher retention level for people who join from prison than they do from other sources. And also just to add to that point, they have higher levels of camaraderie and feel good within the stores amongst the colleagues, because people get behind it and want to support that person. So, it's a kind of win-win. So, it's about the business case, obviously looking for people to fill your jobs, but it's also that, you know, doing good to do well, you know, you will reap the rewards if you invest the time in getting it right.
NC: And Alison, what's your take on the benefits to a business?
AB: I think the other thing to consider is the diversity of thought. Hiring those with different life experiences really does enrich the workplace. It fosters creativity and innovation and going back to the points that both Jacob and Sally made about untapped talent. So, as well as some of these people having the talent already, there is a lot of training and work experience that goes on inside the prison. My mind was blown when I visited the prison for the first time, where they had loads of different workshops. So they had barbers, a carpentry workshop, a mechanics, a cycle hub. So, there's lots and lots of skills that are being learnt and so there is a lot of untapped talent there to use.
NC: That might come as a surprise to some people, because we keep hearing that the prison system is overcrowded, that welfare work with prisoners is inadequate, but that is still going on. There might be fears among employers that there isn't anybody going to come out with any suitable skills.
AB: Yes, yes, and I think that's another area that the CIPD is helping to highlight and that's what I would ask, I think a lot of HR professionals to get behind to really demonstrate that there is a lot of skills and training being undertaken and there are people that are really eager and ready and willing to learn even more to get back into the workplace. Another initiative that the prison is doing is they're currently raising funds to lay a railway track. And they have done three cohorts of, of training to allow people to go and work on the railways. So, there's a lot of really good work that's being undertaken and we need to really kind of highlight that to people.
NC: Well, let's look at the barriers to getting those people on board. I mean, Jacob, we know that if you land a steady job after serving your sentence, you are far less likely to reoffend. So, it is sad to see so few prison leavers find jobs. And I'm wondering why is that? I mean, is it that employers still think it's going to be bad for their reputation, or it's going to be risky to take people on with convictions? I mean, what are the barriers?
JH: The barriers tend to be around the brokerage and in-work support element, specifically for prison leavers here I'm talking about now, because we talk so much about prison leavers and assume that when we talk about people with convictions, that everyone's been to prison. One thing I'll always stress is that of those sentenced in a court every year, only 8% of people go to prison. 92% have to paint fences, pick litter, go on a restraining order, wear a tag, pay a fine. It could be anything and they've never seen the inside of a prison cell. They might have even just got speeding points. And then when you start to think about 12.6 million people with convictions, your image of what a person might look like does start to change when you see the scope of it.
The wobble is what I call it, is the first six weeks after release from prison. It's the most challenging time. You know, when I got out of prison the first day, first of all, I was shocked at how fast the car was driving. I'd not moved that fast in nine and a half months. It was overwhelming. And then I got home to the door and it was a door with a handle and I stood to one side as my dad just looked at me and went, what are you doing? And I was like, I was waiting for you to open the door for me. Sorry, because that's what you do in prison. So, after 294 days, I was institutionalised. Imagine people who do longer, imagine people who do shorter, different challenges here and there.
If we're talking specifically about prison leavers and why one of the facts I've seen quoted 17% go on to find a job 12 months after release. I really don't think it's from lack of willingness from employers. There's enough out there. There's lots of pathways. It's no longer if but how you do it as an employer. I do think the biggest challenge is around the needs of the individual leaving prison and I hope I'm not damning people in prisons right now, but I do think the government has a massive gap between a prison leaver getting mentoring and support and then getting them some in-work support once they're out of prison and in employment. So, I think that's the biggest challenge for prison leavers specific Nigel.
SE: As Jacob alluded to coming out of prison. If we're taking that particular group, people coming out of prison, it can be really overwhelming, challenging, all the work you might have done inside to prepare can kind of go out of your head. I've spoken to many people now who've gone through this situation. It sounds really, really difficult. So, one of the things that we're doing is pairing up HR professionals with people in prison, and then they are mentoring them through the gate to help them as they come out, prepare for getting into work. So, they might have done the CV practice that Alison talked about inside and get that ready. They might have even secured a job but then coming through there's a lot of other things to consider and get your head around.
Now, if you've got someone to help you with work when we know that you need other support as well housing other services, you know a network of support but if you've got someone on your side, who's going to help you get into a job, help me with some of those things, you know, you've got a much better chance.
I've got a lovely story about one of our mentors who was, she's actually mentoring someone in HMP style, a woman's prison and she helped someone get a job and then, and they weren't, it wasn't without its difficulties. But then, she got a job and on the first day, the woman took a selfie of herself at the bus stop on the way to work and sent it to her mentor, and how good do you think that made the mentor feel? And that is again going back to how HR can really use their skills, their professional skills, to do something absolutely exceptional and amazing to help someone else. I just I don't think it gets better than that.
NC: No. Well, I want to get on to how you actually open the doors and a bit about the law and compliance. But just before we do that Alison, anything further from you from your experience about the barriers.
AB: Yeah, I think there is a little bit of stigma and employer bias. I think a lot of businesses hesitate sometimes because they think that they're dealing with really bad people and they're worried about trust and reputation and workplace safety. And so, I think they just need to think through that not everyone needs a second chance and they just need to give it some thought about what do they put in place to give some of these people a second chance, whether that be risk assessments and just looking and to see if the right people coming into the right job.
NC: Which actually brings us back to Jacob. So, just talk us through some of the practicalities, the things that employers absolutely have to sort out with regard to compliance.
JH: Everything starts with getting the culture right and the fact that you're listening to this podcast today, the fact that you've probably shown an interest in supporting people with convictions or you want to find out more says to me that you're already in the right direction. You need a champion, someone in the organisation, preferably two or three, a nice little working group to really drive the change. Then we need to work on getting sign-off, not just at the board level, but everyone who works on the front line, at union level, you know, and customer, client, stakeholder level. You don't have to go and get everyone's permission, but you do need to communicate with them to say hey, this is something we're exploring and exploring is the key term there. It doesn't have to be, doing going to do it will be risk-managed. It will be considered, it will not just be the worst fears which is and I do believe that the worst fear is, we're going to hire a mass murderer. They're going to come in take all our stock. We're going to be in the newspapers next week. Our staff are going to be insulted offended or even harmed. It's this worst-case scenario that people have in the back of their minds and we need to address that bit head-on to say, OK, over 50% of convictions are driving related offences. Right, let's work with that. Well, we'd employ someone with a driving related offence, wouldn't they?
So, for us we really encourage not to have any blanket bands, but consider it on a case-by-case basis considering the risk of the role first and foremost, do we need to ask about convictions for this role? If so, what convictions may be restrictive?
NC: Well, yes, Jacob.
JH: Yes.
NC: People might be the under the impression that anything thrown up in a DBS check is a fail and they can't actually lawfully employ that person.
JH: No such thing as a failed DBS check. Absolutely, no such thing. There is a barring list that comes with enhanced checks, and that's essential because it's illegal to apply and to employ if you're on the barring list, but the basic standard and enhanced DBS check if something flags up, the employment decision rests with the employer. So, what are you going to do as an employer to mitigate the risk? You've got reputational risk to think about. You've got risk of harm. You've got a few other areas of risk that you might consider that I've not thought about as an employer.
For me, it very much starts about getting the culture right, understanding what you would do for processes with risk management, etc. Doing a bit of exploratory work there and then cementing it not to kind of dried cement, but you know, keeping it mildly, mildly almost dry cement in a policy and at least something that we can all reference back to and so that's where I'd begin Nigel, apart from maybe considering doing a bit of self-assessment on where you are, which is something we've put together as well.
NC: I mean Alison, you're doing practical work in prisons. Does it surprise you that Jacob is talking about culture?
AB: No, not at all actually. And I think it's a really, really important point and to build on that. I would say employers should really try and do when they're looking at that culture is look at shifting the focus from past mistakes to the candidate's capabilities, the training that they've had or that they're willing to do their willingness to work and how they might actually fit the culture of the organisation.
SE: I think it's really important as well to think about the communication elements here. We've focused a lot on what the HR specifics are, but then it's the job of HR to get others involved and take others with them. So, I think that if you are if you're new to this and you're thinking of, of expanding your talent pipeline in this direction, tell your staff why you're doing it and set expectations about the values that you have and how you know how you can lead by example. We live in a culture where Jacob talked about good people, bad people, we're all people and we all deserve second chances. And actually we live in a Google culture, don't we? And that's not necessarily helpful. So, I think it's really important that in doing this work, employers are also, you know, cross the, you know, internally and externally really clear about why they're doing it. We've got the criminal justice system, which addresses the crime part. You've got your risk assessments but then let's look at that people-centred culture piece.
JH: What I'd love to say on that bit with, with Sally is that I heard this saying there that a high tide rises many ships, in the sense that whatever you do with regards to your culture or that that approach that Sally has just mentioned around considering people as people, this doesn't just affect those you're onboarding or recruiting from the justice affected, like people from the justice system. It's across the entire scope of the humanity that you employ in your organisation. If you take reasonable approaches, consider risk, do bits like that. It isn't all just about people with convictions. One work for one supports many.
NC: So, Sally, what about the actual recruitment process? Does that differ? I mean, are you basically having to say that jobs are open to this category of applicants, or are you really only going to recruit people from prison programmes?
SE: I don't think there is one answer to that. I think it can be done in many ways. Certainly, I would say it's good practice to show on any of your job advertisements that you're an inclusive employer. However, you want to do that, there's different ways of doing that. But if you're, if you're starting on this, you might want to consider, particularly from the prison route, taking someone released on temporary licence. This is where people within prison have already been risk assessed through the probation service. They start to do job placements outside again in the community. So, employers can work with prisons identifying people to take part in these release on temporary licence opportunities. So, it's a bit of a trial if you like that, they're bringing them into their workplaces. They're going back to prison at the end of the day and that in itself means that there needs to be some, you know, some real force and care put around it for the individuals and for the other staff.
So, people know what's happening but I think that's a really safe way if you like, of starting it. And it's got, it's had all this risk assessment done by the prison and probation service. So, it's a, it's a very good way of doing it. The New Futures Network. I think I mentioned them before they ran as part of the side from the prison service. And they're all about getting people from prison into jobs, and they operate across England and Wales and you know, you can get in touch with them and they can help you do that.
There's lots of organisations who can take you off the starting block if you like. And I know Jacob, I'm sure Jacob can speak for himself, but he often says don't overthink this, start somewhere. Jacob, maybe carry on from me on that because you say good stuff in this area.
JH: Thanks Sally. Well, don't overthink this, start somewhere. It's very much a case of getting started with something. And this is where I always talk about, you know, bringing more people on board, fine. But if I was to look at a recruitment process specifically for someone with a criminal conviction, you're going to have two routes in. One is going to be maybe some form of prison pathway programme, if you want to get involved with prisons and do it that way.
But I'm going to speak to employers for generally recruiting people with convictions because you cannot control who comes through those doors, who puts that CV on into your application process. You do not know whether they have a conviction or not, unless on your application form you tick, please declare any unspent convictions and then what you do with that information is your choice is your process, in terms of whether you reject someone at that point.
But let's go back to that policy that I said that we need to get together, which is that, you know, almost drying cement at the moment, based on this discussion, that will translate to a web statement on your stance on where you are when it comes to employing people with convictions. Some roles may have higher risks than others, so therefore you wouldn't be able to consider or you would have to do further risk assessments but make the process transparent. Let people know what questions you're going to ask and when you're going to ask them. Are you going to ask people on the application form and make a risk assessment based on one sentence, one line, for them to describe the most shameful part of their life? Or are you going to say to them, we will ask about convictions at interview. We're going to ask these seven or eight questions. If you like, you can prepare a statement in advance. Following that, we're going to do a risk assessment and we will make a recruitment decision based on the risk of the role and the risk we deem of you. We'll also let you know that if it's due to a rejection, due to your conviction, we will let you know. We won't just ghost you. We might even suggest alternative roles as an organisation. We might even suggest alternative support you can access looking for employment as someone with a conviction. I'm giving you the gold standard here, but as an employer, you've got to do what's practical within your organisation.
Employing people with convictions shouldn't be moving heaven and earth within your organisation. It needs to be something that you can do pretty quickly from tomorrow that you can say, right, let's just take a few more considered steps to get access to this vast talent pool.
NC: I can see that understanding all that, it's going to make it a bit easier for both sides once they get a system in place. Alison, just from your work within prisons and spreading the word among HR people, what support, further support, do former prisoners need to settle into a job and then develop and feel comfortable and become a part of the organisation?
AB: I think any organisation that's looking at supporting ex-offenders into the workplace would be well to support them with mentors, peer support, so that then they have got somebody that they can go to, they can ask questions, they can get any support that they need. And that's what comes back to the point that Sally was making that the CIPD Trust are also supporting with through the gates mentoring support. Do you want to jump in there, Sally?
SE: Yeah, sure. Yes. So again, going back to the fact that HR, actually the best people to do this because their currency is people at work. So, we run programmes where HR professionals can mentor people with convictions in the community and also in prison to help them navigate and get through the challenges because there could be many and sometimes you could be floored by something and then think, oh God, it's my past. And actually it's nothing to do with that, it's just something that happens in all workplaces.
So, having that person to talk to, particularly an HR person, can really help. And of course, the added benefit of that is HR are the ones that make the practice, the policy within their organisations, and they learn and change their own stuff based on actually having more direct experience with people, which I think is really exciting.
AB: On top of that, I think providing very structured onboarding programmes, training, skills support, as well as that mentoring really helps any individual settle into the workplace.
NC: And Jacob, if things do go wrong in terms of support for former offenders, what would they be?
JH: Well, organisations, as I say, employing prison leavers and employing the general population with a conviction, what you’re going to end up with is a spread of humanity that has all sorts of needs, but you will get that also from your cohort that doesn't declare conviction. So, where do we stand as an employer as providing our kind of general support to colleagues when they have a mental health crisis, or when they might have some form of challenges with family and friends, etc.? Fine, like this is where do we stand as an employer full stop in all of that. And people with convictions experience those problems and challenges too. But people with convictions might also have extra conditions that they have to adhere to and apply to. And if they've been released from prison, they're probably still under supervision from a probation officer, and with that comes a few other bits and bats to consider, such as, you know, this person is eligible to be recalled.
So, if their probation officer feels uncomfortable about any certain thing, and doesn't feel like risk is managed appropriately, they can actually put a request in to have them sent back to prison with very little notice. You also might have challenges such as they may need additional time to go to probation appointments. But yet again, the probation are really accommodating in this space, and they recognise the value of a job. So, it's about just kind of working around working hours, etc. There also might be other restrictions to consider and challenges there, such as they might be on an ankle tag, which limits the times of day they can be outside of their house, yet again, that can all be managed with the probation service.
And finally, they might have certain restrictions on locations or use of technology but this would all be addressed at the interview process or before the job offer process so that you can make a decision on are we able to accommodate any of these restrictions that this individual might have. And by the way, I'm not saying that everyone has those four or five different restrictions, it varies from person to person. I was on tag for four and a half months after release, and I had to be in my house between I think it was 7pm and 7am or something like that. But I wasn't restricted in my use of technology or where I chose to go or work or anything like that. So, it's horses for courses on that one. And Sally, what about what you tell the rest of the management, the workforce about somebody you've taken on in this situation?
SE: I think that goes back to culture. And actually just being clear about the fact that as an employer, you think it's important to support all people in society, and that actually, you're looking for to have the most diverse talent in your organisation. This is if you decide to do this, you want to embrace the challenge. Therefore, you know, it's about talking to people about what's appropriate, what's not appropriate, you know, professional curiosity as opposed to personal curiosity. It's about setting those examples, really.
NC: So, bringing this all together, from your experience, Alison, just one or two tips to help people to get on the road with some of this.
AB: Be open-minded and look at the opportunities that are there and we've touched on the skill sets that are available and bridging the skills gap. Look at what the CIPD have in place and how they can support. And look at potentially putting a programme in at your employers or talking to the relevant people within your workplace to see if they would be willing to look at this.
SE: I would say, please get in touch with me if you're thinking about doing anything in this space. If you want to visit a prison, if you want to understand more, if you've just started doing it, if you want to learn from others, we can broker those opportunities. So, just make a start, do the right thing, it will make you feel good.
NC: And Jacob, I mean, nobody could doubt your own extraordinary turnaround, you know, seeing that untapped potential of fellow prisoners and deciding to do something about it. And indeed, constantly needing to harp back to that time, you know, to give us some lessons of what you learned. So, what would you say to any sort of HR person, any sort of influencer in an organisation who wants to make a difference? What should they do?
JH: Well, thank you very much for listening to that story and going back to those points with me today. These three things I would say that we need to do. First of all, the CIPD have put together a guide. It's phenomenal. We've been involved with it, it works really well, and it is a great place for every employer to get started. Get some real life examples going, you know, I'm happy to come and speak like we're doing today, where I start to put in front of you a real person with a criminal conviction. That's me, that's the 70% of the team that we employ. There are people out there, it stops it about being that 12.6 million and starts it being about Jacob, the person with the conviction. It really does change minds when we get to the why of it all. And finally, my biggest suggestion is if you're unsure where to start, find out where you are, where you are starting from.
We've put together a quiz that people can take, that employers can take, where going through bits that I've mentioned today, do you have a policy in place? Do you ask questions? Do you do this? It's all in there. So, I'd love for people to get in touch if they'd be interested in doing that.
NC: Well, thank you so much to our excellent guests, Jacob Hill, MD of Offploy, to Alison Bell of Project Leaders, and the CIPD Trust's Sally Eley. You can find those resources mentioned in this episode's show notes on the CIPD podcast page. That's including Offploy's, Think You're Ready to Employ with Conviction quiz, as well as the CIPD Trust's practical advice for organisations recruiting, employing and retaining people with convictions.
In fact, throughout April, the CIPD will be shining a spotlight on the experience organisations have had through working with the CIPD Trust and the impact that it's made. So, do look out for that, Building Better Workplaces, Real Stories, Real Impact campaign. But meanwhile, from me, Nigel Cassidy, and all the podcast team, until next time, it's goodbye.
