Podcast PLACEHOLDER PAGE HEADING

Nigel Cassidy (NC): There's a whole list of reasons why businesses don't readily employ people who fled their home countries and gain full rights to work here. For refugees, landing a job is the most essential step to reintegration. Yet many employers never even get as far as seeing what talent they may be missing, wrongly fearing stiff penalties which actually apply to employing migrants or asylum seekers.

And it's all talent going to waste because many of the UK's half a million refugees are highly qualified and experienced. As a CIPD Trust report put it, refugee hires can plug skill shortages and boost diversity of thought in work teams. So what does it take for HR to get a grip on unfamiliar foreign qualifications, to tweak hiring processes and to equip managers with skills to support refugee talent? In short, to turn good intentions into actions.

To help us find out, we've the chief executive of the Refugee Employment Network, Jenny Walton. In fact, she's a granddaughter of refugees herself. Hi, Jenny. Is that the reason why you do what you do now?

Jenny Walton (JW): Hi, Nigel. Yes, I would say that is the reason. It's both personal and professional mission of mine to ensure that every refugee can access fulfilling paid employment in the UK.

NC: And next we have Nikki von Bulow, whose HR career with investment banks and corporates has morphed into mediating and conflict coaching. Hi, Nikki. With tales to tell I gather, among other things, about mentoring a civil and structural engineer from Afghanistan.

Nikki von Bulow (NvB): Yeah, two of them. So as well as the HR side and the mediating side, I volunteer as a CIPD trust mentor for various types of people with barriers to employment. But this time I've done two civil and structural engineers from Afghanistan who are now in full-time work.

NC: Great. We'll hear more about that later.

Now, Oksana, you studied with CIPD as you look for a UK HR job. I mean, you've already got a master's in law. You're a Ukrainian barrister, yet when we chatted beforehand, you were telling me the hardest thing is to make yourself visible. And I wondered what you actually meant by that.

Oksana Hulyk (OH): Hi, Nigel. It's really a pleasure to be here today.

And when I say visible, I don't mean physically visible, of course. I mean making my experience and my capabilities visible and understandable  to the UK employer. I have around 16 years of professional experience in Ukraine. I've worked in a large organisation for many years. But when the country, people may not immediately know what your qualification means, what your previous employer was like. In my case, there is another layer of it. My professional background is in law, but I'm now looking for an HR role. And if someone looks only at my job title, they see a lawyer. They may not see the many years of experience I have working with HR. I think what is important when we talk about refugee talent, moving countries can interrupt your careers, but it doesn't erase your professional identity.

NC: Okay, we can look in a bit more detail at what you've done and what others have done to kind of bridge that gap. But Nikki, the label refugee has connotations, doesn't it? There's no getting away from that in terms of a picture of the kind of potential worker that it brings to mind.

NvB: Well, obviously from my own experience, I think we see a lot on the news that isn't necessarily my experience. The two refugees that I've helped were charming men from Afghanistan, professional, highly qualified, two first class degrees, civil structural engineering, taken in English, speak four languages, readily available and so keen and flexible to go into the workplace. Literally, they were a pleasure to work with. You know, you suggested something and they'd done it for the next time you spoke to them. So proactive, so enthusiastic and amazingly resilient.

NC: And it may not be kind of an altogether nice thing to say, but when you hear the word refugee, that's not always what you think of, is it?

NvB: No, not at all, not at all. And so I think there's a danger of labelling any person.

NC: Okay, well, Jenny Walton, I was quite surprised to discover that many employers aren't clear on whether refugees can even be employed because, of course, if you confuse them with migrants seeking asylum, for example, you wouldn't even consider them for a job.

So can you help us with some definitions?

JW: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is probably one of the biggest barriers that is faced as this misconception, which is understandable that people may not know it. So happy to help with that.

So refugees are people and I think people is the key word, people like us, the people who've had to flee war, violence, conflict or persecution and have had to cross an international border to find safety in another country. And in the UK, a refugee is someone who has been granted legal protection by the UK government. And as soon as somebody in the UK has got that granted protection, they have the legal right to work in the UK.

And just to differentiate, an asylum seeker is a person who is requesting that permission of protection and they're still awaiting a decision. And there are, not to go into too much detail, but some asylum seekers can also work. But refugees who've been granted protection have the legal right to work as any other UK national.

NC: And I don't want to over complicate this, but what sort of specific piece of paper or authorization do they have that the employer can see so that they know that they can employ them without a problem?

JW: There are share codes and kind of different documentation that people can ask. And I would say for any employer or people professional, they do not need to be sponsored and there are no restrictions on the type of work that they can do. And employers can undertake their normal right to work checks as they would any other employee. And they can also go to the Home Office checking service if they want to need a bit more information or detail with somebody's share code or details that they provide.

NC: Okay, now I think it'd be good to get a bit more of Oksana Hulyk’s story and how you've kind of bridged the gap in your old life and now. I mean, clearly, as you said, I mean, you had undoubted skills and capabilities, a lot of them in law, you're trying to transition to HR. What sort of help have you had? What sort of assistance are you getting to bridge that gap?

OH: I think I'm still on my way, on my journey. So first of all, I realized I needed to understand the UK HR environment better. And that's where the CIPD qualification became very important. And thanks to CIPD Trust Bursary, I was able to complete my level 3 qualification. And it helped me to get recognised UK qualification. And at the same time, it helped me to see a direction.

At the same time, I'm still working on my English, especially my pronunciation. And I learned how the UK labour market works, how to present my experience, what employers are looking for. And so for me, reaching the gap has been about taking what I already have and adding the things I need for the UK context.

NC: So Nikki, I don't know how Oksana's story resonates with you, but clearly we've heard about all these barriers already, which seem to be little to do with ability.

NvB: No, quite. And it did resonate with me when you said, Oksana, about feeling visible. One of my mentees, a 40-year-old professional man with a young family is saying he felt invisible. Yeah. He was used to being a professional, seen in a certain way. And when he was here, he was not seen. And that was one of the benefits of the mentor. Any other HR people that want to get into CIPD mentorship do feel free. That'd be grand.

So I think I would say the barriers are very much, as Oksana said, where you can put them into the barriers to the company and the barriers to the individual, I would say.

NC: Let's do the individual first.

NvB: So very much, as Oksana said, they might have a CV, but it's not in a UK format or style that would be well recognised either by a person or an AI bot that's doing the sifting. They don't necessarily translate what's important to the UK market and sector specific. Again, I'm thinking for my, the construct, I say my, they're not mine, but I saw them last week for dinner as a thank you. So I feel them, there's an ongoing relationship with them. But they brought a lot of skills that were not evident on their CVs.

So I had my network of friends who are, nobody who's a friend of mine is safe if I need their help, if they're a professional. Luckily, I had surveyors and people who were partners in construction consulting who were willing to lean into this and help. And so I called on experts. So I am an HR generalist, but I'm not an expert in construction. That did not stop me doing this. So I just asked people that knew. So I had a group of people helping me.

Taylor, so the construction, the surveyor was saying, couldn't quite get a head around everything they were doing as project managers in Afghanistan. So they were working on UK or US funded projects, but they were not just the project manager. They were also doing the health and safety, quality control, everything that there would be four different people doing that in a UK organization, you know, and they were doing all of it. She was mind blown by the whole thing.

But transferring that and getting that into a CV that tells their story highlights immediately, as Jenny said, that this is not somebody that you do not need to sponsor this person for a visa. It's not difficult. That barrier does not exist. Okay. They have the right to work and to remain for a period of time, which is another thing we might talk about later. But so you can just hire them as you would anybody else. And they are a high skill that you can bring in possibly at a lower level because there are some sort of jiggling’s to be done. Both of my mentees said they were happy. They were experienced like 10 years project managers, site managers with that breadth of experience, but they were willing to go in lower just to understand the UK way of doing things. So you could get a massive amount of skill at initially perhaps a very reasonable rate and then progress. So that's a real sort of benefit and something to bear in mind.

But the barrier really was them having a CV, a cover letter and being able to present themselves at interview in a way that highlighted what were the benefits and the transferable skills directly to the UK.

JW: Some other barriers is also the kind of reduced confidence that came up, but also sometimes limited access to transport in terms of where if people need to go for interviews and kind of costs involved in the hiring. But also, I think that one of the biggest ones was just lack of those professional networks or access to contacts with employers or within your industry. And that's something we're trying to do by working with industry bodies to support refugee talent and displaced professionals accelerate their pathway back into their profession because I think as Oksana said, you have had to flee your home often with absolutely no choice of your own and restart again. But that doesn't mean you've lost your entire career experience and expertise that you bring. It just means you may need to rebuild those professional networks, your professional confidence, but the skill and the talent is there.

NC: I want to talk a bit more now about the things which organisations could reasonably change to open the field a little bit. I don't know, Oksana, perhaps I could just ask you, what sort of things are most daunting that somehow get in the way of you demonstrating in interview, in applications? And in any other way, what you could do for an organisation?

OH: So I can, I think I can bring my expertise to have all my experience to organisation. I think about maybe some new fresh ideas and resilience, of course, is all these new things because you have to start your life from zero, new country and deal with everything. You have to make friends. You have to build your new social bubbles. You have to help your children to settle in schools. And at the same time, you have to improve your professional skills at the same time. So I think everything is important.

NC: And Jenny, just talk a bit about the things organizations need to start changing or could start changing and be more successful at finding the skilled people they're missing.

JW: I guess going on from Oksana's point, which is a really key one, which is that at the Refugee Employment Network, we are the only network in the UK focused exclusive on refugee employment. And we don't believe that refugee employment is philanthropic. We believe for all the reasons Oksana says that this is about workforce strategy and about attracting skilled professionals into your business and workplace and also preparing for the future of work with incredibly adaptable, resilient, problem-solving individuals who multiple language, English being like third, fourth one, as Nikki said. And I think that that's kind of the work that we do with employers in industry.

But specifically looking at the barriers, I think it's firstly kind of doing a review and reflection piece when your employees are creating their job descriptions and think about who they want to recruit. Do you need to have specific UK qualifications and UK experience? Is that a legal requirement for your job or for this person to this role? Or is that just routine practice or something you've always put on your job description?

Make sure that you are specifying with salary, the working arrangements, flexibility to help people understand whether it is going to be suitable for them, especially when refugee women obviously have childcare responsibilities. Many are single mothers, so you need to ensure that if you want to attract the right talent, they're really clear on what they offer and what the job is for them.

And then I think there's something around revisiting and normalising skills gaps. And I know this work, makes our workplaces more inclusive for all people, but also the recognition of CVs with gaps due to displacement or due to people waiting for their asylum claim. There will be a period where people have not worked, as Oksana said, have volunteered or have gained other experience or transferable skills. So often the ATS systems or thinking about how you're filtering applications, how do you ensure that those CVs gaps are instantly filtering out an incredibly skilled talent pool that you can have.

Again, with the filtering, I think overqualified as we heard from Oksana, a lawyer, many years of experience, the people that Nikki mentors, highly skilled engineers, people I'm working with who have been heads of banks, heads of insurance, HR directors are getting rejected from jobs because they're overqualified for entry level roles or junior roles. But that is a stepping stone that many people are willing and have to take. So again, not filtering out for those reasons.

Again, revisiting English language level requirements. Is that essential for your jobs? If not, make sure it is absolutely appropriate for the role and responsibilities people are doing. And then we can also go into a bit more about looking at how to make the actual process inclusive from kind of interview, offer, induction, etc. But making sure all of that process is completely clear. As we know, there is that unfamiliarity of the UK recruitment practices for many people who are new to the UK or unfamiliar with that. So what do you expect from a CV and cover letter? A bit of guidance on that. What do you offer as a business and organisation?

I think the key things are reviewing what you need and being really clear on what you're offering people in terms of employment and then making it inclusive for refugees and displaced talent as you would making it more inclusive for all people to join your company.

NC: And you mentioned language, which Oksana’s already talked about this a little bit. I know you've got a couple of young children, five and seven. You say after a couple of years, they're brilliant English speakers. I would imagine with you that your English with regards to the law and now the HR is enormously sophisticated. You could hold your own with anyone. In terms of professional English. Is it frustrating when sometimes the spoken English doesn't quite keep up and in a way, you're actually, your brain is ahead of what you're able to communicate?

OH: Oh yeah, I agree that of course it's hard and the language development is an ongoing process so you have to work this every day on your speaking skills, writing skills, your pronunciation, your accent every day. And so I think the importance of English, it depends on the role. But if someone written in technical English, for example, in first class, it helps and shows very strong professional foundation. And I think accent, for example, or some problems with pronunciation shouldn't make employers overlook professional experience and skills that someone already has.

NC: That's a bit of an indictment of employers sometimes if they really can't get over that, isn't it, Nikki?

NvB: Yeah, and I was going to say, just following on from what Jenny and Oksana have said about sort of what could employers, you know, what adjustments, how could they modify that to open themselves this readily available talent stream where they don't need to go for sponsorship. They're ready and more than willing. And I think top level buy-in and the will, a genuine will to get involved in this and not be put off by anything else at all, just decide I will. This is a sensible thing to do in this climate.

I mean, in construction, they're supposed to be building 115 million new homes. And they need to, I was looking at the, don't worry, this is from the government, the department, and they need to increase employees by 26% in construction. You know, hello, as an HR person, that's like, where am I going to get those from? It's like, well, I know a few.

And the other thing I would say that was really impactful, particularly for Hamza and Abdullah that I'm helping, was the offer of, and this was unpaid but so impactful, of shadowing experience with a UK organisation. So there was a particular organisation, a construction consulting firm in London, who I know one of the partners, so bad luck on them, but and they set up a programme. So having a champion in the organisation who is open to this, and it might be your ESG, it's a social governance issue, it's doing something ethical, good for society as well. So not only does it help your recruitment, it helps your brand, your profile.

NC: And in fact, Nikki, this is a great example of what people, professionals, HR people can do beyond simply trying to employ people for their own organisation.

NvB: Yeah

NC: But to get involved, get around the problem and think of things that they can do.

NvB: But it's a double thing because if you get them in for shadowing, which happened with both Hamza and Abdullah, so they were able to work with UK architects, read UK plans, go on client visits. They were given some work to do that was then overlooked by other project managers and what have you. It was absolutely invaluable. And the partners then agreed to be their UK reference because this is one of the things I've found is not having UK experience and not having UK reference on your CV, again, could sift them out completely. And that was the game changer.

Also, because although this partnership didn't have any vacancies for them, they used their own network, their professional network. And so Hamza got his first role through a friend of a friend who has a construction business. And that was just a contractor role. But it is all about our networks. That's how we all get jobs, right?

NC: Yes, absolutely

NvB: It's our network. And if you don't have a network, you are at a disadvantage and you may be lost. You know, you may feel invisible yourself, but you are also invisible to employers who need you.

NC: Makes perfect sense.

Of course, it doesn't all stop when somebody is lucky enough, as your guy did, to get a job. Jenny, almost half of employers said they needed more guidance to help refugees with confidence. I mean, this is a, is it a capability gap? Is it a confidence gap or a willingness gap, do you think?

JW: Well I think it probably could be all three combined. I think it's, yes, it's an and an and situation. I think, you know we've talked about the fact that this is a highly skilled and experienced workforce. There's kind of almost 50% of refugees hold qualifications of an A level or above, 23% hold a master's degree. So you've got, we know the skills and experience exist, but also on the other side with the Home Office refugee integration outcomes, that only 24% of refugees are employed within their first year once they're granted asylum. But this only peaks and goes up to 48% after eight years of living in the UK and the national average is 74%. So I do think there is so much more that we can do.

And I think listening to kind of Oksana, but also from my own experience of my family who are refugees is actually, and why I do what I do is because I'm really determined and as Oksana said, and I'm actually very impatient with the speed of how people are finding jobs or and employers are hiring refugee talent and recognising this talent pool because to me that's kind of unacceptable. Only 24% of people in the first year are in employment peaking at 48%. When we know that there are skills shortages exist across industry and some of the barriers is that lack of understanding.

We know that employers and some of the people we work with say, I didn't even know if it was legal to hire refugees. So I know that is like one of the biggest things around how do you get people to understand the talent pool exists?

NC: Well, we certainly put them straight on that today.

JW: Yes. And I think one of the things that I found actually, which is really encouraging is, you know, I've recently spoke to a room about 80 business leaders. And the first question I always ask is, how many of you are intentionally hiring refugees and about 99% of them are not.

And then we talk about refugee talent and then we have a panel and people meet them and then the next question is, where are they? Where is this talent pipeline? How do we access them? How do we reach them? How do we employ them? And so I think the appetite is there, but sometimes it's how do we reach them and where is the talent pool exists?

And one of the things we're doing to address that is to, we're developing a refugee employment marketplace that will enable employers to share jobs, that will enable refugee talent to search for jobs and also find employment support. So I do think there's a little bit of joining up that we're trying to do as a refugee employment network of the refugee talent, the jobs and the employers and the industry bodies to look at how do we make this much easier for talent and employers to connect with each other?

NvB: Yeah, so I hear Jenny's frustration and I get that. But from my limited experience, I've had two mentees, but they both found jobs within six months of the mentoring. So that's active mentoring by an HR professional, helping them with their confidence, their CV, their presentation skills, their interview skills and using the network.

So it was all and getting them that shadowing, you know, so they had the paperwork as it were, they had the story and they were getting the confidence to speak. but then introducing them, getting that shadowing experience and then using that network or being offered a job directly through the shadowing experience. That's how you can bring it down.

From my, from two, that's not statistically, a thing. I get that, but that's happened twice.

NC: Well, you're just one HR person. If 100 did that, would be a massive change.

JW: We run a refugee engineering mentoring programme and we have the exact same outcome. So it's not just you, Nikki. You know, we've within five months of mentoring from an expert professional within the engineering industry who has that specialist industry knowledge can help with a CV. 50% of the people within five months were working in engineering roles and before they were unemployed or working completely outside of that industry.

So professional mentoring, paid for work experience, kind of shadowing opportunities, industry programs, absolutely open the doors, but accelerate that. And as you can hear, I'm still very impatient because I don't think it should take a second generation or third generation in my case. And as Oksana said, for the children of refugees to kind of reach the career pinnacle, we're wasting talent and skill we have. So that's why my impatience may come across.

But the openness for the employers in our network and kind of HR professionals and people professionals that we work with, it kind of inspires me and drives me every day, because our network have grown to over 400 members in the last year. So we're getting more and more employers who are signing up to say, well, I'm convinced, but where's the talent? So that's what we're trying to do is get more refugees across the UK into jobs and employment and work with more people, professionals to do that.

NC: What about how managers look after people once they're in post? What do you think about that? The problems come back to you, Jenny, sometimes after people have been employed for a while.

JW: No, I say they don't. I say a lot of our work is with really amazing kind of HR talent employers and talent teams across all sectors and industry at the Refugee Employment Network. And we also work with the charities and local authorities who are supporting refugees holistically.

So I think one is as employers, there is a lot of organisations out there who are also able to support refugees and displaced professionals with housing with kind of the, I guess, intersectional issues that come with for many people. So I think there's support organizations people can lean on and connect with as businesses.

And then the other thing is that we've developed with the UNHCR refugee employment training for HR talent hiring managers that gives them a greater depth of understanding of barriers and some of the challenges that people may face in the recruitment process, but also once they're in the workplace and how to make it more inclusive.

So I do recommend, we're not the only one, but I would say the Refugee Influent Network training is really helpful to get hiring managers because it is a different type of employee from kind of entry level or kind of graduates to learn how to support. But I think there's something much more in terms of about some of the inclusive policies that we also just need to look at around kind of flexible working around kind of how we can offer payment for people or loans for people who might have to do family reunification to bring their family over here or other legal costs going through their different processes.

But I think there's something specifically around having mentors and buddies and champions and people internally who are able to, whether that's online or in person, kind of show people kind of the workplace culture and what it's like to work there and be that sounding board because a lot of things is very cultural and kind of understanding.

I had some great feedback myself where somebody told me to be more direct in my feedback. They said, in our country, we're very direct. We don't do a feedback sandwich, just tell me and then I will improve. And I was like, brilliant, thank you for telling me that. I will absolutely do that because we all want to do our best.

So I think a lot of it is also having very open conversations, but also being really that many people are also their family members are still in war and conflict zones and they have multiple things that they are thinking about, whether that's also paying and sending part of their salary home to their loved ones and their community, constantly seeing the news cycle which will obviously cause kind of trauma and stress and anxiety and just having those considerations and reinforcing what your business and company supports people in terms of employee support is something really important that we can continue reminding people as I join our teams.

NvB: Yeah

NC: Saw you laughing there, Oksana, when Jenny was talking about the need to be direct. I mean, two years after you've made this move to the UK, I mean, are you getting the right kind of sort of feedback and help from potential employers? Are you confident that you will be able to get a full-time job?

OH: I am an optimist and I'm confident that I can do it. But I'm also realistic and I understand that it may take time. But I feel much more confident about the direction now than I did when I arrived to the UK. And yeah, of course it means a lot for me. It's an important step towards building our lives here.

My children already put a great achievement and I think they are proud of me to do the same.

NC: And seeing as Nikki, I think you mentioned to me before that you haven't done any of this kind of mentoring with these two specific people before your previous company wasn't, didn't have an agenda to deal with or to help refugees. So what's been the sort of personal payback for you? How have you found doing it? What's been the reward, if any?

NvB: So this idea as a volunteer, yes, having come from big corporates where it was not a thing a while ago though, because I've been an HR consultant for a while, but personally getting involved with this, it's, and I hate it because you hear on social media, but it has been a humbling experience. I mean, it actually genuinely has. And it's not a word I use often, but to me inspiring people, we were at a dinner party, a black-tie charity do, and somebody on the table said, who is the most inspiring person you've ever met? And they were talking about athletes and this, that and the other. And I looked at my husband and I said, it's Hamza, isn't it? That's it.

He is an exceptional, and Abdullah, but an exceptional human being.

NC: Okay, and Oksana, what are your thoughts as we kind of bring the conversation to an end? What in the end has been most helpful in terms of the contacts you've had with people who might ultimately help you find your dream job?

OH: I think we have to be proactive and never give up. I say it every day to my children and to myself, never give up. Be proactive, be confident and knock to all doors and be optimistic. And we should remember we shouldn't measure all our journey and all our life only by the moment when we get a job in the UK. There's a lot of changes already made.

NC: Thank you for that. Thank you to our fine trio of Nikki von Bulow, Jenny Walton and Oksana Hulyk.

The CIPD Trust provides an official and actionable hiring refugees guide which can help organisations of all sizes recruit, support and retain refugees in the UK workforce. And that's easily found online as is the CIPD podcast page where you can search our back catalogue of, we hope, really useful content on key people and workplace topics.

And until next month, from me and Nigel Cassidy and the podcast team, it's goodbye.