Solving the hybrid working challenge

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good afternoon everybody my name is leslie richards and i head up
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the cipd in wales and i'm delighted to be hosting today's session which
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addresses really difficult but much talked about issue of solving the hybrid working challenge
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the leaders that my colleagues and i speak to across the profession on a daily basis find themselves grappling with
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leadership in an ever sorry in an ever uncertain world where so much is still unknown
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and rapidly changing what is clear though is that building our working lives post pandemic
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will involve a longer term shift to hybrid work which raises new challenges for us
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around fairness and inclusion well-being and new and very different demands of our people
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managers i'm joined today by a panel of experts each of whom brings
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a different perspective to the discussion uh peter cheese cipd chief exec
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and um wearing a slightly different hat today as co-chair of the uk government's flexible working task force
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we're also pleased to welcome gary wedeberg subject matter expert workplace policy team at acas and the
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author of the new acas guidance on hybrid working on behalf of the flexible working task force
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claire mccartney a senior policy advisor at cipd specialized in research resourcing and
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inclusion and last but not least andrew willis head of legal at croner
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who's joining us to support on the q a element so thank you all for joining us this
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afternoon before we hear from speakers i just want to cover some practical details with you
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this session is being recorded and it will be available on demand via the webinar section of the cipd website
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where you can access all previous webinar recordings and sign up for future ones
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you'll see that you're all muted as attendees to submit questions to the panel please
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use the q a box not the chat box because we won't be checking up questions please do though use the chat
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box to network with fellow attendees and remember to use all panelists and attendees drop down if you want to share
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with everyone i'd like to draw your attention to our
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member benefits and in particular some of our additional resources that you may already be aware
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of that can support you in your role as we continue to navigate these unusual
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times we are updating our faqs and resources on the cipd website all the time as new information becomes
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available if you go to the cipd coronavirus hub you will find even more resources to see members
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our members can also get individual legal advice via our hr inform helpline which is available 24
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7. all members in the uk and ireland can access the wellbeing hub and helpline
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and 365 days a year via telephone or online consultations with qualified
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therapists members can access the phone number and the online services via the membership
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benefits page and you'll see more details about this at the end of the session
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so we've got a lot to get through in the hours so let's get on with the content of our discussion this afternoon
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format will be that paul scully minister for small business consumers and labour markets will set
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the scene for us followed by peter who will share some of the work that the flexible work and task
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force has taken on um to help us understand and support the change to hybrid
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that will make emerging ways of working we'll then hand over to gary who will give us an overview of the recently
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published datecast guidelines and finally to clare to look deeper into
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some of the areas that we need to consider we'll then open up questions so please send these through as we go along
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we will try to get through as many as we can we're not going to be able to focus too much on individual questions but we will
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be looking to pick up themes so that's everything from me i'm going to hand over to the
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minister to get us started we have maximized the sound at our end if you find that it's still a little bit quiet
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you should be able to adjust the volume at your end thank you gentlemen hi a big thank you to cipd for
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arranging this event and for the invitation to speak today over the past 15 months we've all faced
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substantial challenges as a result of the covid 19 pandemic there has been a huge impact
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on how we've been able to live our lives at home at work and more widely but as
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we look beyond the initial response we must ensure that we're well placed to tackle the longer term challenges of
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economic recovery a world-class approach to flexible working is a key part
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of the government's ambition to build back better ensuring that our flexible labor market is ready for the opportunities
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and challenges of the post-covid 19 economy i want to start by talking about the
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importance of flexible working from the employee perspective the uk is undoubtedly the best a great
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place to start and grow a business home to some of the world's best companies large and small but for many jobs
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there's still many invisible restrictions that hold people back like the need to live in high cost
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accommodation close to the center of cities or maintain working arrangements that are really hard to combine with family
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or other responsibilities we want to enable a high skill high productivity
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high wage economy that also delivers on our ambition to make the uk the best place to work whoever you are
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and wherever you live offering flexibility to balance work and home life can be key to ensuring
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participation and progression in the labor market and to opening up employment opportunities for everyone
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regardless of their gender age disability or location but flexibly flexible working isn't just
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good for employees we know that it can bring considerable benefits for employers
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by removing the invisible restrictions to jobs flexible working fosters a more diverse workforce and the
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evidence shows that this leads to improved financial returns for business furthermore workers who have more
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flexibility are more motivated at work and more likely to stay with their employer there's a strong
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unmet demand for flex more flexible jobs with research con conducted by the behavioral insights
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team showing that offering flexible working could attract up to 30 more applicants to job
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vacancies so the business case for flexible working is absolutely clear and while we need to be mindful of
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focusing too narrow or narrowly on one type of flexible working we should also seek to capitalize on the advances
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made to support remote working during the pandemic but we've got to do so in ways that acknowledge that remote working
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may not work well for everyone we need to continue to develop the skills to manage people on
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the one hand to ensure businesses get fully get the business benefits on the other to ensure good well-being
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and mental health in the workforce some people will have reported higher levels of productivity while
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working from home but others will have struggled to maintain or improve their performances
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someone have benefited from saving time on the work commute while others will be keen to redraw the line
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between work and home from an organizational standpoint the enhanced
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technological capability is focusing minds on which things we can only do or do best
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collectively in the office such as building relationships accessing training and development opportunities
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now with business of now able to return to workplaces my understanding is that many employers
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are considering a hybrid model of workplace and remote working for at least part of their workforce
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employers need the flexibility to work through the best solutions for their particular contacts that's why i've asked the flexible
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working task force to initially focus its attention on hybrid working advice before turning
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to the longer term issue of considering flexible working more widely the first
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piece of advice published by acas the subject of today's webinar is a sensible and balanced piece of work it's
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important that employers are getting the guidance that they need to introduce hybrid working fairly and
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legally looking ahead i want to see the task force move on to consider best practice around hybrid working as a means of
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addressing some of the issues that are likely to evolve as organizations work through the practicalities of what will be for many
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a new way of working so as we move forward and the economy continues to open up
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we've got to build on what we've learned about flexible working the benefits and the pitfalls
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to support our economic recovery i'm really encouraged that such events such as this one serve to support
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this learning work towards achieving better quality employment better relationships with
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pisa we're going to cross over to you now i can see that a number of delegates
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have had difficulties hearing the recordings so um maybe you want to summarize some of
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the key issues thanks thank you leslie and uh good morning to everybody thank you so
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much for joining us webinar and apologies that the minister's comments were a bit hard to hear but uh he
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is very supportive of flexible working just to be clear about his role so he as you can see he's got a portfolio
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within the department for business baze as it's uh known um but he is the overall
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sponsor for the task force on blacks for working which i co-chair with civil servants uh within the
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department um and he was talking about the the importance of flexible working about the evidence that
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shows that it's really good for people's well-being it's supportive of inclusion
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and even things like productivity and certainly attraction and retention of people which are things that we very much
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believe in as well but he also stressed which is very very important that there is not one size fits all
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um and i think more broadly that that's where we're at isn't it and i know that's where there's so much interest in this subject and and
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it of course we have done so much in adapting our organizations over the last year and when the initial lockdowns
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happened we had to respond quickly but in many ways as the pandemic
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slowly unwinds and we're slowly able to go back to places of work the questions the
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challenges the variables are more complex and there is no genuinely no one-size-fits-all
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we have people even as we've surveyed them during the periods of lockdown who may have said look i want to work in
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this way when the lockdowns are finished but we honestly don't entirely know until people start to
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see what their options are in terms of how organizations are supporting so this so-called hybrid working which
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is really about different ways in which people can work in terms of location working from home or working
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from the office and also this has been observed and leslie observed that uh there there's an awful lot of media
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commentary on this the media loves to pick the extremes doesn't it loves to comment on organizations that have
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told everybody you must go back to work and that's the end of the debate or other organizations that apparently
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said you can do what you want to do and that's entirely up to you i mean the truth almost certainly for
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every organization is going to lie across that spectrum um and we have to ensure many
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things in all of this not least this idea of fairness because uh we we know that you know we've seen
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through the lockdown that some people have adapted to home working really well others have not
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um and some people have far better of course working environments to better work from home
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and others do not we have to be careful therefore in many many aspects both legally and ethically in terms of
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how we make sure that what we are doing is as supportive as we can be for all
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whilst also of course balancing the needs of business but i for one and many of you i'm sure
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will have heard me say this at other events believe this is a real opportunity for a paradigm shift
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in our working patterns and behaviors the ways in which we've worked you know the circle full-time working standard
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hours working weeks all those sorts of things and the fact that we have had flexible working in the past but it has
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not always been made available to all is something that i think we can really move forwards and
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change and we have learnt so much through this pandemic so all these ideas which i think in the
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past although as i said we have had opportunities for flexible working often the working cultures were not
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supportive of it often we found that presenteeism was but was a more dominant culture where people
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were expected to be in an office and also almost feeling you know often with good reason that they were being
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judged in their performance by how many hours they were visible in front of their boss versus uh not
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being visible and of course that was mitigating against people who were working more flexibly who were working from home perhaps on a
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regular basis or indeed people who are working more flexible as part-time hours things like that
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and it is not a coincidence that in terms of women's progression in the
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workplace more women tended to be working either flexibly in terms of working hours part-time working hours or working from
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home for obvious reasons and that was one of the things that was mitigating often against a progress of women in workforce was
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because we had not got the cultures right and we were still very much in the prevailing environment where managers
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said was somewhat biased towards what they saw in terms of input hours versus understanding output
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and outcomes and those are things i think also we've very much learned through the pandemic
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so whilst yeah the headline of this webinar is very much about the challenges
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it's about opportunises as well and and we know and as the minister highlighted there's lots of evidence as to why
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flexible working in all its forms can be good for people um that giving people choice where we
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can is a good thing to do we can all see now that as the economies begin to recover that our ability to
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attract and retain people has become one of the really big issues and really big challenges
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and almost every organization that i talked and we talked to is recognizing and acknowledging that
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part of the solution to that is to try to support more flexible ways of working and to take forward
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what we've learned through the pandemic so to lead on to the main bulk of the of the webinar it is very
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much to share the work that was led by acas as part of the flexible working task force
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to provide the legal and practical guidance on hybrid working so this opportunity of
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ways in which people can sometimes work from home in some or other remote locations and sometimes work in the office
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and just to give you a very brief context from the flexible working power source it was actually established about 18
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months before the pandemic hit us and it was very focused on a lot of what the minister said about trying to encourage more
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organizations to think more about the opportunities in the valley of flecks of working in all its forms
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different working patterns working hours working schedules ways of working working locations and so on
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but of course the pandemic has very much driven initially this conversation about hybrid working
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and hence that has been the focus of the work of the flexible working task force and that task force incidentally also is
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made up of representatives of every major government department it's also made up of representatives of all
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the major uh representative organizations of the cbi the cuc the british chambers of commerce
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federation small business uh uh acas of course the cipd and many others besides working families
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care uk in other words organizations that have a particular interest
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in helping us all to drive forward in these this opportunity to create different ways of working for the future
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so that's enough for me i think in terms of introduction i am really passionate in
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the view this can be an opportunity for us to change as i said very long-held paradigms of work which
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can be good for all of us but there are many questions and hence uh i'm absolutely delighted that gary
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wetterburn from aircraft is joining us together with uh from uh claire mccartney um gary led
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so much of the work with acas pulling together this legal and practical guidance which uh he
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and claire are going to comment and share with you all and then just finally in terms of the work of the flexible work and task force
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we will continue to adapt the course and update this guidance as we learn through practice and that's
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of course another very important message in all of this we're going to have to do a lot of learning as we go and then
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as we get into the ultimate winter months we will be gathering through the flex work entire source case studies
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experience and really trying to share all these different ideas how we change the cultures of our work
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to adapt and support what will be a lot of emergent practice in the coming months about hybrid
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working and flexible working and how it really works in practice so again thank you all for joining the
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webinar and it's my real pleasure to say to hand on to gary and to claire to take you through the guidance uh
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and then as les as he said moving on to a panel uh to discuss your questions so i'm going to hand back to leslie and
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then she can introduce gary and claire properly thanks peter um
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before we hand over to gary to look um at the layout and structure of the
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guidance there is a specific question in the q a peter um which we'll just
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take now as part of that overview of what the task force is doing and the question is how are the default
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administrations involved in the flexible working task force yeah that's a very very good question
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um they have to some extent i wouldn't pretend it's it's gone far enough because we know
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of course that the the regulations that are opening up um are different across the developed
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nations um but i know those same conversations are being pushed through the task force into some of the developed nations and
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assemblies to discuss and debate it it's also important though to recognize that the flex working tassels
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is not an official government guidance thing it's it's an advisory group if you
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will working with the department for business and of course we are trying to understand uh how this fits in with
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changing regulatory environment environments in the developed nations that it is not
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formal government guidance so when we all talk about these road maps and other things um although it may be lightly touched on
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by governments including in the developed nations and we'd want them to reference it it's not a official government guidance
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in that regard but it's a very good question and we are absolutely looking about how do we share this and make sure it is shared to all
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of the channels including of course the developed nations thanks peter
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um so now we are going to hand over to gary um who as i explained earlier
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is the author of this guide um that has been produced on behalf of the flexible
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working task force so gary over to you okay thanks very much leslie
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good afternoon everyone as mentioned my name is gary and i worked as part of the
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team at acas and alongside the flexible working task force to create this new
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habit of hybrid guidance today i'm going to give an overview of what's
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in the guidance um so if you could move on to the next slide please thank you as we're going to look at how
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the guide is laid out how it all fits together both with each other and with other acas content to provide some
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extra detail and context we'll have a little overview of the contents of each
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part of the guide what's in there and we'll end with a request for
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feedback and some more information on upcoming events from acas on hybrid working
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um so if we could move on please thank you so if you visit the acas
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website this is the the landing page this is the page you will land on if you're searching for hybrid
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working sets out the the five chapters um and the related content which you can
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see at the bottom so it's linked to flexible working working from home and of course the coronavirus
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advice and guidance that acas have as well uh if we could move on please okay
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thank you so this um tries to give an illustration of how things fit together
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um we use consultation as an example of this so consultation
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it doesn't really fit in particular in one single part of the guide
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it's relevant throughout numerous stages rather than just at the beginning or in the middle
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so the the the guide contains links throughout to the consultation section wherever it's relevant
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so for example first part of the guide is when to consider hybrid on how to consider
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hybrid working for an organization consultation is going to be an important aspect of that
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fact-finding serving staff learning from the experiences of the
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last one and a half years to help decide whether or not you feel hybrid working is
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appropriate and practical to introduce it's also relevant if you're considering introducing or creating a hybrid policy
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it's always a good idea to consult it helps build trust in the process
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and helps hopefully to agree a policy as well as identifying any areas of concern that you're unable to address
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but it also is relevant when you are considering supporting and managing how concerning how would a support and
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manage staff for hybrid working because you might have to consider things like performance
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management uh when people are out of the office part of the time and consulting can help build a consensus of how to do that
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so it's rather than one linear guide it links to each other throughout at
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appropriate points um there are also links to other acas
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advice as well to provide extra detail and context so for example if you're on the
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considering hybrid working part of our guide you might want to know more information about
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flexible working generally so it links off to that area of our website you might receive a flexible working
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request from a member of your staff it links off there as well so you can get full information on how to respond
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to a formal flexible working request there's a lot of crossover with homeworking in particular
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so we have a separate full guide as well on homeworking for example much more detail on on sort
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of managing someone when working from home so it all sort of links together at appropriate stages
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okay if we can move on we'll take a look at some of the individual chapters of the guide now the first
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section um as it says right there is really looking at why you might consider hybrid working
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and how you might consider it it considers what triggers uh an organization to look at hybrid
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working you might be looking to introduce it yourself you might be looking to balance
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uh rising desire for homeworking with business needs exactly as peter mentioned before
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you might be looking at ways to transition from temporary ways of working during restrictions with the lifting of
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the restrictions and as mentioned you might receive a request or a formal flexible working request from a member of your staff
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so it tries to address those and point you in the right direction now with that it also
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sets out ways to consider how it might work for you so it goes through thinking about where
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when and how work could be carried out really involves looking at say perhaps rules or certain parts of rules
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within your organization thinking about where certain part types of the work could be done
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when it could be done so whether there is a specific particular time that a certain activity
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needs to be carried out or if it can be carried out at any time of the day and how the work is carried out is about
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looking at i suppose the wider aspects of somebody working from home so how do teams still collaborate and
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figuring out how that will work so there's guidance on those areas there's also a focus on considering
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individual needs so we've mentioned if you get a request from the staff flexible working request
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from employees if you're considering introducing it it's important to
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delve into the detail with staff to consider whether reasonable adjustments under the equality act might be relevant
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to emphasize the importance of avoiding assumptions and generalizing as you're making a decision
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as a company it also looks on into deciding what to do next so emphasizing that
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you should as an employer make a fair transparent and clear decision that you may well consider trialing and
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reviewing how that went rather than just introducing things immediately um and also to consider other types of
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flexible working options alongside or instead of hybrid working depending on the conclusions that you come to
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through this section uh if we could move on please
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okay thank you we then have a section on consultation as mentioned before
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very much focuses on the good practice of consultation and emphasizing how useful a tool it is
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throughout the different stages of considering hybrid working for your
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organization and in reducing it as well it also contains some information on
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when employers may have to consult in certain circumstances this section as
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it shows there also encourages employers to double check contracts
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um encourages checking whether you may need to change the contract of employment considers whether you're looking at say
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a more a less formal and non-contractual change or whether you are going to look to have to vary the contract
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depending on the route you decide to take and again it contains links to things like the varying the contract
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guide if you end up needing some more detail on that if you can move on please thank you
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we then have a section on creating a hybrid working policy this at the moment really stands as an
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introduction to creating or adapting a policy perhaps that you might already have like homeworking
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it gives an idea of what a policy is with outlining that it's a framework for hybrid working within your organization
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that it can include issues such as how a decision is considered and made for example um and gives a little bit of
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guidance on reviewing and consulting over creating a policy also okay if we could
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move on please thank you then have a an incredibly important section on treating stuff
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fairly within hybrid working um really what this section does is emphasize the importance of including
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everyone regardless of where they are working we are aware of the potential issues and
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risks surrounding whether there could be a two-tier workforce created through hybrid working
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so it looks at how you can maybe consider trying to address some of those issues
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and there's a focus on discrimination as well some issues to be aware of and links to
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more guidance within the acas website on how to handle discrimination issues
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okay if we can move on please thank you we then have this section on supporting
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and managing staff in the workplace this section contains a number of
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different uh aspects to consider health and safety people's well-being supporting mental
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health has information on performance management considering what training might be
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needed and who may need that training you know as well as the individuals who will be hybrid working
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perhaps also line managers may need some training on how to manage remotely and a very
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important connection within this section is to our homework and guidance in particular
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for example there's much more information around managing performance from home in that
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guide so it links out to that okay if we can move on please thank you
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so that's a a quick high level run through in a nutshell that's what's contained within this new
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guidance um if you are visiting the guidance we would
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massively appreciate any feedback that you have at the bottom of every single page of the guidance you'll see this
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button did you get the information you need from this page and it's a way for you to provide feedback to us
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um we're eager for as much feedback as we can get our hands on essentially
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it's a as already mentioned a quickly developing area there's going to be a lot of discovery a lot of learning for
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everyone who is going to consider hybrid working we're looking for the lived experiences
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of employers and individuals who've gone through hybrid working have used it so that we can
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add to and expand on the guy's guidance using that feedback listen to the experiences of people with
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it yeah thank you if you could move on please
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here we are and then one final point for me is that acas have planned some further sessions on hybrid working
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there is a series of webinars uh throughout the rest of july and august
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which has a bit more of a deeper delve into the guidance so you can sign up to those there's also a hybrid
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working digital conference which i believe is on the 13th of august and you can have a look and sign up to that through our website if
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you're interested that's a quick run through thanks very much for listening and i'll now hand you
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back to leslie thanks very much thank you gary
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what's in there isn't that um we're gonna we've got some questions coming through can i just remind you
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um i've picked up the couple of questions that have gone into chat can i just remind you to um put the questions into the q a so
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that we can keep a better track on them um i'm going to hang over to claire now so claire
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mccartney is one of our senior policy advisors at cipd and she's going to talk in a little
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bit more detail about some of those areas we need to consider so over to you claire brilliant uh thank
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you so much leslie good afternoon everyone delighted to be with you for this webinar um so if we move on to the
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first slide our employer survey data at cipd confirms what we've all been talking about
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um a growing focus on hybrid workings you can see two-thirds of employers surveyed
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are reporting that they plan to introduce that they plan to expand their use of hybrid working
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over the next six to 12 months so i think this really highlights the need for organizations to think quite um
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carefully about how they can take a strategic approach to hybrid working and also make sure
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that they're really harnessing its benefits now gary has already outlined
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the six key areas in the acar cast and the flexible working task force guidance which has been really incredibly helpful
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and i thought it would also be useful to go into three areas in a bit more detail
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and these are areas which we feel that the cipd are central to getting hybrid working white
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um and particularly from a kind of cultural perspective now um as you hopefully heard from the
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minister and you heard from um peter as well the task force will also be releasing some more
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detailed um best practice guidance on hybrid working in the coming months so do um keep an eye out for that as well on
32:48
top of the really helpful a task force guidance so the three areas that i
32:54
want to discuss with you today in a bit more detail are first of all the role of line managers
33:00
then going to be talking a bit more about inclusion and fairness we've heard about the importance of that from peter from gary so i'm just going
33:07
to pick up on a few more issues around that and then i'm going to finish off by looking at employee well-being
33:13
in a bit more detail in a hybrid environment so line managers um so important i think
33:21
in creating a supportive culture when it comes to hybrid so it's going to be really important to engage your
33:27
people managers throughout the organization as well as providing training and development to help them support hybrid working
33:35
i think they'll potentially need to manage requests for hybrid working at an individual but also at a team
33:41
level so it's really important that they are up to speed on your organization's policy around
33:49
hybrid and what might be possible in their areas of the organization because as we've said before you know different
33:54
parts of the organization different roles will look um perhaps a little bit different when it comes to hybrid working
34:01
i think that also line manager is also going to need support in developing the skills to ensure
34:07
effective communication performance management will look you know somewhat different
34:12
if you're different if you're managing people in a hybrid manner um and also in team and relationship
34:19
building and collaboration i think in particular some of the responsibilities that they might want to
34:25
focus on are around establishing new ways of working within the team in partnership
34:30
with the team and discussing the best ways to communicate um for different activities developing
34:38
a culture of trust and supportive trust-based relationships within the team i think is just going to be
34:43
um pivotal supporting fairness and inclusion and i said i'm going to go into more detail here but
34:49
ensuring um that all employees have opportunity to be involved they have an opportunity for
34:55
voice within working practices and that line managers are understanding people's
35:00
personal concerns and addressing any issues or anxieties that they may have
35:06
and also making sure that all have access to the same opportunities um will be really
35:12
important keeping a spotlight on wellbeing as i said i'm going to go into that in more detail anyway but this will include
35:18
line managers having regular one-to-one conversations um around well-being with their team
35:24
members tackling presenteeism and i think you know in in the with more people working remotely we've
35:29
seen a rise in virtual uh presenteeism as well so really i'm trying to tackle presenteeism
35:35
helping um employees and teams to set sort of clear boundaries um i think will also you know help um in
35:42
terms of managing work-life balance and uh mindfully disconnecting um from work so if we move on i'm gonna
35:50
now uh take a little bit of a deeper dive around inclusion and fairness and i think in a
35:57
hybrid environment organizations need to really make sure that they are having ongoing
36:03
um or providing ongoing access to development in career conversations for all of their employees
36:08
no matter where they're located or no matter what type of flexible working they might be doing and
36:14
making sure that there is also a really fair allocation of work and opportunities so
36:19
really looking to avoid presence by us whereby you know if a manager happens to be sat in the
36:25
physical workspace they're not just giving all the opportunities to other people that might be in the physical workspace they are giving them to the people that
36:32
are best suited to do their to do the projects or the work um allocation
36:37
i think it would be important for organizations to identify where any inclusion risks may arise so
36:43
be really proactive around this if employees do move to hybrid working and how potentially these can be
36:49
addressed i think data comes into this as well so tracking and reviewing your data
36:55
to ensure um and looking at things in terms of data around recruitment promotion um reward
37:02
retention um in the light of hybrid working to ensure that there aren't any unintended negative consequences of
37:09
people that are working hybrid or perhaps working more remotely and making sure that adjustments are
37:15
put into place where they're needed and i think it will also be really important to look at where remote or hybrid
37:22
working might be helpful reasonable adjustment for instance could potentially be a helpful reasonable adjustment for someone with a disability
37:28
or long-term health condition but also equally important not to make assumptions um there as well um i think
37:36
it will also be important to consider and this is certainly something that peter discussed all of the issues where an employee you
37:43
know might not be able to work um from home so lack of privacy and social isolation issues but also
37:50
you know we know sadly that instance of domestic abuse have been rising as well so some people may not have a
37:55
safe place to work um from home so really thinking about that and then also thinking about those that
38:01
will have challenged challenges in the physical workspace um you know those that are clinically vulnerable those
38:06
that have real concerns over using public transport particularly at this time when we know
38:11
covid uh instances are rising not you know decreasing um so i think really important to have
38:17
an understanding and awareness of that and accommodating as much as possible and having you know one-to-one conversations with
38:23
individuals um to hear about any concerns that they might have i think it will also be really important
38:29
to take steps to ensure equality of experience between those that are potentially in the physical
38:35
workspace and those that are working remotely one example of this
38:41
might be for instance making sure that you're holding all your meetings online by default so that everyone is having the same experience everyone
38:48
is feeling um included and i think finally where employees
38:53
aren't able to work in a hybrid way because of work um that they
38:58
undertake or you know they're on the front line then really thinking quite carefully about are there other forms of
39:04
flexible working that may be suitable for them um i think would be really helpful and help to ensure fairness
39:12
more generally so if we move on to the final area i wanted to discuss with
39:18
you this afternoon and that is looking at employee well-being um so i think it's
39:24
really helpful for organizations to support managers to understand the potential
39:29
well-being implications of hybrid working and also to equip them to have appropriate well-being conversations
39:36
with individual members of their team um you could start to normalize
39:41
well-being conversations by making space in your team meetings and encourage team members to help one
39:48
another by talking about the strategies perhaps that they use and to keep wow um i think it would be
39:55
really helpful to provide training if you can and support two employees on managing work-life
40:01
balance and healthy habits in relation to technology use including helping
40:07
employees to take breaks um it sounds obvious but not enough people do and particularly when we're working
40:13
um remotely and virtually um and also to mindfully um disconnect so we have some
40:18
kind of disconnection going on there and we're not working um you know extended hours
40:24
i think it's really helpful just to emphasize um that you can never communicate enough about
40:30
um what well-being support you have in place um within an organization and that's you
40:35
know in terms of physical well-being but also mental health support as well so if you're a larger organization
40:41
and you have um opportunities around occupational health employee assistance
40:46
programs really communicating those to employees and if you're a small organization perhaps you might be able
40:52
to link to um specialist charities that can provide support and guidance like mind for instance um and i think it's
41:00
also really helpful um for managers to think about and support managers in spotting
41:06
some of the signs of poor well-being or mental health because we know that some of these can be weaker when people
41:12
are working remotely and things perhaps to look out for might be poor
41:18
concentration low mood taking or needing a lot of time off work and you might start to see an
41:25
impact on performance maybe withdrawal from social situations
41:30
so we have a lot of different guidance and different areas around these um around these three themes that
41:37
hopefully we're going to include in the chat for you i'd um just draw your attention to um
41:43
also cipd's hybrid planning guidance um birmingham university have got a working
41:48
preferences conversation tool for managers and employees which is really helpful and also the cipd and minds mental
41:57
mental health guidance for line managers will also be i think really helpful so just to to finish off with
42:04
i'd just like to um say that while we're expecting this big shift in terms of
42:10
hybrid working we're not necessarily expecting um according to our data such a big shift in terms of
42:17
flexibility and hours and organizations focusing on that for individuals um and you know as we've heard this can
42:24
bring with it the risk of a two-tier workforce where those that are able to work remotely benefit
42:29
from greater flexibility those that have to be in the physical workspace are having less flexibility so this really
42:35
forms a key part of our rationale behind our flex from first campaign to try to help support fairness and open
42:42
up opportunities more broadly and just a reminder around that we're calling for organizations to
42:47
make the right to request flexible working a day one right um and also we are
42:53
calling on the government to make some change from a legislative perspective there as well and we're
42:59
really delighted so far with the support that we've received from organizations on the campaign including nhs employers
43:07
and as i said we believe this will open up opportunities and increase fairness more broadly um if this is
43:13
something you'd like to get behind then um do use our hashtag flex from first and um
43:18
post on social media so i'm gonna finish my overview um there leslie and i'm gonna hand over
43:24
to you because i know we've got some uh questions that are coming through
43:30
haven't we just um we've been chipping some off as we've been going through
43:36
and um yeah there's quite a lot of questions so thanks for that claire i'm i'm gonna pick off a couple
43:44
of the easy ones first um there was a specific question around
43:52
an update on the flex from first campaign so claire has given us
43:59
um an update on where we are so to the delegate who's posted that
44:04
question if you've got any further questions on that following claire's update if you could just um
44:10
pop those back into the um a follow-up question back into the q a
44:17
um before we get into some of the more detailed
44:23
questions here's one for you i think gary um you mentioned when you were going
44:30
through the new guidance um towards the end of your presentation you cross
44:35
reference day cass's homeworking guidance we've had a couple of questions asking
44:42
what the difference is between hybrid working and homeworking we've been asked for a legal definition
44:49
of hybrid working i'm i'm not sure andrew might like to chip in here i'm not sure we have that
44:54
yet but gary um maybe based on the fact that you have flagged up two
44:59
separate bits of guidance you could um start that one yeah thanks leslie so
45:05
you don't believe there is a legal definition of hybrid working i think that's something that you consider for your own
45:13
organization um rather than there being one correct
45:18
answer to that um in terms of the difference between hybrid
45:23
and homeworking um well within a casa's guidance
45:29
what we've identified is that hybrid working is where someone is in the workplace part-time and working from
45:35
home or working remotely part-time and so the the homeworking guidance
45:42
itself is specific to i suppose whenever someone is working from home whether that be all
45:48
day every week or whether that be one or two days per week or only occasionally
45:54
i'm not sure that there's a full definitive difference between the two it's just two
46:00
different ways of thinking about flexible working and making use of both
46:05
parts of that guidance if you're hybrid working which is to say in the office or in the workplace and
46:11
working from home as well
46:17
there's no there's no legal definition of hybrid work and it's a term that's suddenly become you know pretty
46:23
widely used in the light in the lives of what's happening currently but there have always been people who've
46:29
been solely based in the office people who've worked from home and then lots of people in between and
46:34
you know often people work from home for a short period of time for a specific purpose perhaps
46:40
dealing with a particular piece of complicated work or a project um other arrangements have been more uh
46:47
long term but we've always had these arrangements it's just that in in the lives of what's happening currently this term has now attached
46:54
itself to those arrangements but but like gary said i think it's nothing new in a sense this is
46:59
something that's always happened it's just something more before now great thanks um thanks for that gary
47:05
thanks for the um clarification as well andrew i'm going to move on to some specifically legal
47:11
questions so these are coming right at you andrew um
47:17
there's i think there's an overriding question before we look at some of the more detailed ones things are
47:22
changing um i think everybody who's spoken this morning has said you know it's it's changing we're
47:29
already doing things differently and we already know that what we've already changed
47:34
is going to change again so have you got any advice specifically around terms and conditions
47:40
in this interim period um you know contracts are probably out
47:45
of date already with people working differently and yet there is a
47:50
reluctance we need to do a wholesale review of terms and conditions because we know it's going to change so if you've got any guidance or advice
47:57
on how practitioners could approach that i don't think it's necessary to do a cart blanche review of terms
48:04
conditions actually um i think i mean obviously you distinguish in this in this
48:10
situation between new starters and people with existing terms and conditions but those with existing terms
48:16
have for some time had the right to request a flexible working arrangement um assuming the massive 26-week service
48:24
if that's agreed to and the trial period is successfully completed that generally
48:31
results in a permanent change to terms and conditions and often that's simply recorded in an outcome letter
48:36
saying um your terms are going to remain the same save for these changes to hours
48:43
or days or place of work and i think that's sufficient i don't think it's necessary to go into a huge amount of
48:49
depth and review uh terms and conditions as a major exercise i think i think as
48:55
long as it's clarity everyone knows where they stand and it's recorded in writing i mean i think i think that's probably
49:01
sufficient uh certainly until things settle down a little bit more so your recommendation then would be to
49:09
just keep up with the changes as they're happening those variations in writing now
49:14
absolutely i think it is important to be aware though that just because you haven't changed a contract
49:20
you can still through the flexible working process assuming it is satisfactory to all sides
49:27
you still end up changing terms and conditions but what you haven't had to do is go back and do a root and branch
49:33
review of the actual contract okay um so you mentioned there
49:38
you know these changes through the flexible working policy as we know it a pre-pandemic flexible
49:44
working policy and we've got a specific question um here that is would you need to stick to a particular
49:50
working pattern when adopting a hybrid model or can you be flexible
49:55
i think i think the whole point of the process is to be flexible i think the only thing to be aware of
50:01
is consistency and the importance of consistency um because your doubt must be facing applications from a number of employees
50:08
often within a within a same team perhaps across similar teams
50:13
and i think as long as you adopt a principled and consistent approach people might end up with different
50:18
results depending on their own circumstances but as long as you point back to first principles and justify why you've made
50:24
those decisions and made those agreements i think that's the key thing here because there's always a risk
50:29
uh in this situation and in many others in distinguishing
50:34
between employees for not always very clear reasons and that can open up risks of discrimination
50:40
claims and the like so i think as long as your principles are clear preferably you've got written a written policy as
50:45
gary's outlined you can point back to that if questions are asked that's the key thing i think
50:50
so i guess you know what i'm hearing when i talk to hr leaders across across wales across
50:56
the uk is um i think people are worried about you know hybrid policy hybrid working
51:02
home working policies so am i right then what you're saying is it's the same principles as flexible
51:08
working policies have always been so it's almost one less thing to be frightened about
51:15
i think it's safest to to uh handle these requests in the context of the flexible working inflation
51:22
and within that legislation there are eight reasons for perhaps turning down a request either full stop
51:29
or in certain respects as long as you stick to the right process and and stick to those reasons uh then
51:36
you're on pretty solid ground okay that's great so that and that covers off a couple of other separate
51:42
questions around where a hybrid working policy sits i think what andrew's saying
51:47
you know loud and clear is it's all part of the flexible working policy okay so um
51:54
give you a break for a second i have got more legal ones coming up um claire and
52:02
gary there's been a question around case studies and whether recent case
52:07
studies are available peter did reference this in his overview of what the task force is doing
52:13
um can you just pick up on that and clarify time scales for that those to be available thanks
52:19
yeah thanks leslie um absolutely but you know with the second part of the guidance we hope that there will be some
52:25
um case studies with that kind of going into going into good practice but also just to flag as
52:31
well we we do have um at the cipd our own um case studies so um we've released some guidance in april
52:38
flexible working lessons from the pandemic hopefully as if by magic we may have a link in the chat at some point around
52:44
that we've got some some really interesting organizations and we deliberately picked um you know across sectors as
52:50
well and those that might not find it as easy to um you know to manage flexible working and hybrid work and so
52:57
we've got examples there from princeton skanska uk fujitsu um smaller
53:02
educational settings um compass group um so a whole host of different organizations showing
53:08
you know how they're tackling some of these issues and as peter says it's a there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach
53:14
but i think actually you can get quite a lot of inspiration by looking at how other organizations are kind of tackling
53:20
these types of issues um so yeah certainly we have that available okay thank you
53:25
um it's just another one here for you claire one of the first questions we have through this afternoon actually um and i think again claire's covered
53:32
this in her presentation but if the person who post um asked the question wants more clarity
53:37
please ask us another question in the q a but clare it's around um fairness and how do we make sure
53:43
people working online aren't left out you have given us practical examples but did you want to
53:49
add anything else i just think it's a really you know i think it's we all need to be really incredibly mindful of this and you know
53:56
make sure that we're we're looking out around this we know that previous ons data suggests that before the pandemic
54:02
people that were working um full-time from you know remotely or from home um you know didn't do as well in terms
54:08
of career progression um salaries um so we you know we really need to keep a close eye on this i think
54:15
it is about certainly um creating a really supportive inclusive culture making sure our line managers are doing
54:21
that making sure colleagues are as well that we are you know ensuring that everyone has an opportunity to speak to have voice
54:26
i said about you know online meetings by default so everyone feels included but also look at your you know
54:32
review and make adjustments look at your data make sure that people aren't being disadvantaged
54:37
and sometimes it might not be deliberate but but it could be coming through so really you know take a sharp look at
54:42
that and keep keep a review process in place and also in terms of
54:48
legal risk i mean obviously you want to address well-being as as part of looking after your employees in a positive way
54:54
but if there's one real risk of home working it's people can become isolated can be
55:00
vulnerable to stress especially if they're doing a job that's deadline heavy people don't realise
55:06
until they're isolated at home how much they rely on colleagues just to sound off
55:11
to or to discuss issues with and it's really important to maintain those
55:18
lines of communication even if someone's working physically remotely but they're able to tap into a team's meeting or get on the phone to somebody
55:24
really easily uh to try and head off head off that potential issue yeah absolutely completely completely
55:30
agree and i think there's you know also being sensitive and how when we're commute communicating through email
55:36
and because actually that that can feel quite different if you're on your own um you know and you're not not kind of
55:41
in the physical work um place so just having sense being sensitive being empathetic supportive having those channels for
55:47
employees thank you thank you both um we are running out time to put three minutes i
55:53
think we'll just be able to get maybe one or two quick ones in and there's a question in the q a which i wonder gary if you'll
55:59
be able to answer it within the q a this question around the eight reasons um for refusing
56:05
flexible work i wonder if you could just pop a link into the relevant cascade for that that'd be great um
56:13
so andrew we're back to you um a question around terms and conditions
56:19
and places specifically place of work uh can the place of work in the contract
56:25
remain as the office and a question around employees not
56:31
normally being able to claim travel expenses to a normal place of work what happens when they're now working from home um
56:38
again if you're if you're using the flexible working process and you're responding positive to that and then
56:43
whatever you agree is incorporated into the contract as a change to terms so if you agree with somebody that'll be
56:49
working from home um so many days a week then obviously for those days that that is their place
56:55
of work um in terms of travel costs um there's costs to and from work and of
57:02
course employers can often gain in employees sorry i can often gain in that respect because
57:07
they're not going to take journeys they would normally undertake in terms of um journeys from base to client
57:14
um just be mindful of what that might mean if somebody lives fairly remotely or somebody will
57:20
lives over water or something it would incur a very a ferry fare every time they went somewhere and
57:26
that's that's something to factor into your initial decision i mean uh the burden of additional costs is one
57:32
potentially fair reason for saying no to flexible working requests but it's definitely something to think
57:38
about upfront before you get an arrangement in place if you've got terms that govern the recovery of travel
57:44
costs think about what that will mean under the new arrangement if it's going to present a problem you can negotiate a
57:50
change with your employee um as long as that's um a two-way process and is is is
57:57
conducted fairly there's nothing wrong with that but if you can't agree a change then maybe that's a reason to
58:02
think about whether um hybrid working flexible working is suitable in this particular case thank you thanks
58:09
andrew um we've got we've got a few questions left but we have
58:15
run out of time so um i'm not sure there's one around virtual
58:21
training i'm not sure why we're just wrapping up um if any of my cpd colleagues on the call can
58:27
drop a link into our guidance around virtual training and there's also
58:33
a quick question here around homeworking and the extent to which company needs to pay for the cost of desks and shares
58:39
and i think we've also got something on our um q and a's on the website so if while we're
58:44
wrapping up um when the cipd contingent could pop the relevant links and that would be great um
58:50
we could probably stay on here for another hour quite easily uh so i just want to say a big thank you
58:56
to um claire and gary and andrew uh for their input this afternoon i mean
59:04
there are so many questions we haven't got all the answers yet and it's similar to everybody else out there
59:10
we are waiting through this and trying to work it out as we go along and um we will facilitate as many of these
59:16
sessions as we can to share that information with you thank you to everybody who submitted questions um
59:22
i hope we've we've answered as many as we can in different areas the recording will be available on
59:29
demand later on as will the slides and i've seen a commitment
59:34
in the chat that we will produce a transcription of the minister's um introductions
59:41
as certain quality wasn't um fantastic uh just a final reminder about the
59:47
well-being support for members of the uk and ireland the free 24 7 telephone helpline uh
59:53
staffed by qualified therapists and provided by an award-winning workplace well-being
59:58
provider health short so thank you everybody for joining us
1:00:03
and enjoy the rest of the afternoon bye