Nigel Cassidy: Neurodivergence may be better understood. So, why do workers experience discrimination just because they interact with the world differently? I'm Nigel Cassidy and this is the CIPD podcast.
When you think about it, every business or organisation is neurodiverse because no-one has a standard-issue brain. But that doesn't make our organisations neuro inclusive. So, this podcast is about what it takes to give everybody the chance to shine in their job. It's about meeting the particular needs of the one in five of the population who have what's sometimes termed "alternative thinking styles". I mean, how might you adjust work routines? Or how do you deal with people? How should you tweak your recruitment tactics to find untapped talents? What are the wider business benefits that maybe you could be missing out on? Joining me: three guests, each with a unique take on this topic. Alex Hirst is co-founder of Hoxby, a global community offering freelance business services. For him the key is allowing individuals to choose their work style. In fact, he's co-authored a book on the subject. Hello, Alex.
Alex Hirst: Hello, thanks for having me.
NC: It's a welcome return to the podcast for Kevin Lyons, senior HR manager at the digital learning provider, Pearson. Himself, neurodivergent, has pioneered a raft of measures to help support neurodivergent employees and recruits. Hello, Kevin.
Kevin Lyons: Great to be back. And hi, Nigel.
NC: And, from the home team, a senior diversity and inclusion advisor who combines research and engagement to help shape CIPD thinking on this and related areas. It's Dr Jill Miller. Hi, Jill.
Jill Miller: Hi there, Nigel.
NC: So, Jill, I'll start with you. I mean, all these responsibilities: equality, diversity and inclusion, and now neurodiversity to the fore as well. For clarity, just kick us off with a reminder of what neurodiversity stands for.
JM: So, I think this is an important place to start. And at CIPD, we've been working with neurodiversity training company Uptimize to produce some guidance on neuro-inclusion at work. And we also look at some of the terminology and language within that. And in the guide, we talk about neurodiversity being the natural variation in human brain functioning.
NC: And, of course, it also becomes a little bit confusing, because so many words that added after the neuro, we've got people who are neurodivergent. That is what exactly?
JM: All brains are different. I think some people with really broadly similar ways of thinking and communicating and processing information can have this sense of shared identity and shared experience. And, for example, that could be identity as autistic, as dyslexic or dyspraxic, or as an ADHD'er. And I think people who possess one or more of these identities often identify or are referred to as neurodivergent. And you might hear somebody who doesn't identify as neurodivergent referred to as neurotypical.
NC: Okay, that's pretty clear. And then finally, to sort of complete the set, when we speak of neuro-inclusion as being a sort of desirable state for an organisation. What is that? What is it to be neuro-inclusive?
JM: A neuro-inclusive workplace is a workplace that embraces and values all types of information processing, learning and communication styles. And essentially, it's where neurodivergent individuals feel valued, respected, treated with dignity, and that they have true equality of opportunity at work.
NC: Okay, so that's pretty clear then, Kevin Lyons, you are, you told us, neurodivergent. So, I mean, can I ask you, what is your divergence? That sounds like a terrible panel show, doesn't it? What's your divergence? And what impact does it have on how you work with people?
KL: Yes, thanks. Thanks, Nigel. And just to build on what Jill was saying, I think the US National Symposium definition really nails it, which says that neurodiversity is a concept, where neurological differences are to be recognised and respected as any other human condition. And I'm ADHD, and I'm autistic. And how does it affect me? I have things that I can do very well and what I call my strengths. For example, I love anything to do with strategy and seeing the big picture. And I have a number of things that I can juggle in my brain at any one time. And my autism allows me to see patterns and details and inconsistencies that maybe others can't see as readily. What adjustments do I need? I need the adjustment that, you know, I do have several things going on in my brain at any one time. I may just hyper-focus on something for a while. I may have a certain sensitivity to certain things. For example, my autism, is there's a sensitivity to sound and brightness of light. So, those kinds of things impinge in my day, regularly, but yeah, I mean I have key strengths, and this is the message really to any organisation, neurodivergent people bring great strengths.
NC: And are there any kind of tells? If you're in a meeting with people and you are getting a bit upset or frustrated, would other people be able to tell? Do you try and mask that sometimes?
KL: Masking's a really important area, Nigel, glad you mention it. Many neuro-diverse people will mask in the workplace. I'll give you an example. My autism means that I stim. That means I flick my fingers, and that's a regulation of enthusiasm. Many autistic people will stim in some sort of way, it may be some sort of head tipping, or it might be wiggling their toes or flapping their hands. Obviously, in the workplace that might be distracting to people, so what I do is if I feel I'm going to stim, I wrap my hands, I put my hands in my lap or something like that. Now, all the time that I'm doing that masking, I'm not spending time thinking about the thing that I should be thinking about.
NC: Interesting. So, Alex Hirst, the CIPD found one in five neurodivergent people have said they experience what they see as harassment or discrimination. That's a really high number, isn't it? I'm just wondering whether you think the way they're treated by their managers that makes them feel that way? I mean, is that conscious on the part of the managers? Pretty serious barrier, isn't it between neurodivergent people and decent work?
AH: Yeah, and I think we often talk about physical disability and the extent to which that is experienced as a deficit by the person is really about the environment in which they're operating. And it's the same with neurodiversity. When people are in an environment that isn't supportive or conducive to their way of thinking, then it can create difficulty and masking and things like this happen. And it's where people feel like they are different or are not included in the way that a neuro-inclusive business would be. But I don't think this is necessarily intentional on behalf of managers, I think that this is generally a lack of understanding. But also, I think it's indicative of holding on to outdated working principles that really haven't moved on with our understanding of neuroscience.
NC: Without going into too much of the detail, which we can in a minute, you're saying people just aren't autonomous enough?
AH: I think autonomy is really helpful in this situation, the more that you can enable people to create their own work environment, the better that is for neurodivergent people. But I think it's also things like hanging on to the idea that we have to all be in an office working at the same time in order to produce work, which is something that's borne out of an industrial age way of thinking where we had to all be in factories at the same time to operate machinery. But now most of the work people do is actually with their minds rather than with their hands. And as a result, we need to create work environments that get the most out of people's neurodiversity.
NC: OK, well, we can talk a bit more about those work environments in just a moment. But Jill Miller, I want to just sort of look at this so-called "employment gap, neurodivergent employment gap". I mean, that is a thing, isn't it? I mean, is there any evidence, any stats? Can you, sort of, shed any light on this?
JM: Yeah, there is data on an autism employment gap. The Buckland review of autism employment, led by Sir Robert Buckland, I think really highlights this. And the report says that just three in 10 autistic adults are in work, compared to five in 10 for all disabled people, and eight in 10 for non-disabled people. So, I think a really significant gap that I think employer action here is, is really needed with many, many benefits for the business as well.
KL: Yeah, I think the other thing is, though, about the data is how many neurodivergent people are actually saying that they're neurodivergent when they come into an organisation. Because, if you do not think that it's a safe environment, then as a neurodivergent people, you're not going to volunteer the fact that you're neurodiverse. That's that. That is a fact. And this is why I say one of the key things that organisations need to do is to be explicitly neurodiverse, inclusive, and they can do that in a series of ways.
JM: Yeah, I think building on Kevin's point, I think it's really important we create organisations where people feel safe and comfortable to talk about their neurodivergence if they want to. The survey that we did at CIPD found that around three in 10 neurodivergent employees haven't told their line manager or HR about their neurodivergence. But really interestingly, we asked, "Well, why was this?" and while 44% said it's a private matter that they didn't want to share and, of course, that needs to be respected. Almost two fifths said they're concerned about people making assumptions based on stereotypes, a third feel there's too much stigma. And 29% said they're concerned about the possible impact on their career.
NC: And, Alex Hirst, I can see an immediate tension here. On the one hand, what you seem to be saying is that there are people out there in the workplace who have something to offer and are not getting to an interview. We can talk about interviews in a minute, and they're not joining organisations, but at the same time, we're also saying there's a risk of pigeonholing or shoehorning neurodivergent people into particular roles they're thought to be good for.
AH: Yes. And I think pigeonholing and stereotyping is the thing that needs to be avoided. And when we talk about the design of work in itself, then we need to think about designing work that is inclusive of everyone, and starting with neurodivergence is a great place to begin. But really, what we're talking about is trying to normalise individual preferences and individual work styles and support people to deliver their best work in that way.
NC: So, we've talked about not stereotyping, but also playing to people's strengths. If you are stereotyping a bit or not making the best use of your neurodivergent people, how do you kind of break out of that?
AH: I think stereotypes can be helpful for the macro conversation about involving more neurodiverse people in work. They certainly do have character traits and skills that could be relevant for different types of work. But I think we mustn't lose sight of the fact that everybody is individual. And neurodiversity is a spectrum. And it, we just need to remember that people have individual skills and attributes, contributions to bring to the workplace that may not fall into those generalisations. So, I think what's important is for organisations to define exactly what it is they're trying to output and deliver and achieve and find the right person to deliver that. And ideally, look at the entire spectrum of neurodiversity when considering applications for it.
JM: I think Alex makes really important points there about recognising that every person is different. And I think although certain strengths may be typically associated with different neurodivergent identities, we shouldn't make assumptions or generalisations across a whole group of people, because everyone will have different career aspirations. So, I agree with Alex here.
NC: And yeah, Kevin, you were saying at the beginning about the things you were really good at. You were telling me beforehand about a potentially difficult hire for an organisation where somebody solves some massive problems. Just tell me that story.
KL: Yeah, and I support what Alex is saying about stereotypes. But I do think it's also important to understand strengths. And this might be helpful to organisations. So, we discussed, when I was working for a software company, we had great difficulty recruiting people to do bug-fixing, it's relatively simple to get people to be recruited. You could develop code, but nobody wanted to fix the mistakes those developers made in their code. We recruited somebody who's profoundly autistic, and the manager agreed to a work trial. And so, we gave that person some code, where the bug-fixing team knew there was a bug, but they'd been unable to diagnose it for several days. And that person found inconsistencies deep in the code within 10 minutes. So that's, that's a pretty profound strength to me.
NC: So, Jill, of course, a lot of this, as we were hearing earlier from Alex is down to the historical design and nature of work. Can you sort of start talking us through how you start reviewing the way people work and how that can be improved, just both for the lives of the neurodivergent people already in the workforce, and to actually make the organisation happier and more productive.
JM: I think it's really important we firstly look at line manager training and awareness around neurodiversity. Less than half of the employers we surveyed said that managers feel capable and confident to support neurodivergent individuals at work. That's a figure that really shows we need some action here. A lot of what we're talking about in your inclusion is about good people management. But for people to be able to ask for support and ask for adjustments at work, we need this open, supportive and trusting culture we talked about before. I think for people to perform at their best as well, that's something we need a really good relationship with our manager. And those trusting relationships are so important that people feel able to have these conversations. But I think what is fundamentally important, what an organisation really needs to shift on here, is manager job design. Is the people management aspect of a manager's role valued enough compared to the technical aspect? And I think that is a really important one, because managers need to be able to feel they can prioritise that people management side of what they do to really support people. And I think Alex mentioned about individual needs. And this is about understanding how to best support an individual.
NC: Because, Alex Hirst, there's a kind of irony here that during the pandemic, there was a lot more people working on their own. And we seem to be, kind of, almost rowing back from what might have been a better working environment for some people in this situation.
AH: The pandemic opened people's eyes to different ways of working. And I think we've been doing it for the best part of 10 years. And what we have found, in terms of inclusive work for neurodivergent people, is that remote work can be much better, because an individual can control their work environment more, but also, the requirement is for much more explicit communication. So, a lot of it happening on written word, but also briefing and working more towards outputs, rather than, sort of, soft and vague job descriptions, which tends to work better when you're working remotely. So, there's been improvements. But yes, to your point, we see a lot of "return to office mandates" in, making the headlines at the moment. And of course, that's concerning for us, because we think that's missing the opportunity for neuro-inclusion.
NC: Well, Kevin Lyons. I know your own organisation is remote a lot of the time, we've talked about it on previous podcasts, but can you just talk a little bit about how you have upped your game across the organisation with your existing workforce? I mean, what was the process? And then briefly, what are some of the reasonable adjustments that you've made for people?
KL: Yeah, of course, of course, Nigel. Yes, we did discuss the importance of flexible working, CIPD podcast 200, check it out. And.
NC: Excellent plug.
KL: And I think the jewel in the crown of what they have to do at Pearson is that every employee has the opportunity to get a formal diagnosis of neurodiversity, if they wish. And we do that through the occupational health referral process. And the company health partners that we use for that has a partnership with Lexxic, the neurodiversity specialists. So, if an employee is referred for a neurodiversity diagnosis through that process with the manager's cooperation. And I'll look, I'll come back to that manager point, then we can undertake a formal diagnosis. This is incredibly important for many people, because to understand that you have a developmental condition, or chronic condition, and you are neurodivergent, can very much help the planning of accommodations and adjustments. And I've lost count of the amount of people that have told me that they've had a formal diagnosis, that it has changed their life. And it is very difficult to get a formal diagnosis on the NHS, and it can take several years, and private health options are also expensive. That's the first, sort of, plank in the inclusion route. The other one was to focus on our recruitment and to look at the entry routes into the company, be they LinkedIn be they Glassdoor or the that they Indeed website, and to have a neurodiversity reach-out statement, which basically says we're a neurodiversity inclusive employer, and we welcome applications from neurodivergent people, we have an employee resource group that champions neurodiversity. And please tell us if you need any accommodations and adjustments, that simple reach-out statement says, "come on in the water's fine. This is a safe place".
We've also focused on the onboarding experience, so that during the onboarding, the individual knows that we are neurodiversity-inclusive employer, and they also have the links to our Employee Resource Group. I'm the Chair of the Employee, Co-chair of the Employee Resource Group for disability and neurodiversity. So, we put it under the disability umbrella, but we recognise that there are neurodiverse people who do not recognise themselves as having a disability. Some do, some don't. So, we're within that Employee Resource Group. And I lead as the Co-chair only on neuro diversity inclusion. So, we have a laser focus. And that provides also a safe space for neurodiverse people who wish to speak to other neurodivergent people in the organisation.
The other thing is education awareness. And we've run a number of education awareness sessions for employees, but also for leadership teams, where I stress the business opportunity with neurodiversity inclusion. Because let's just think about that. One in five people, that is a lot of employees in any organisation and that is a lot of customers in society and it's a lot of people in society generally. So, that's the opportunity. Flexible working is fundamental, and we've embarked on a flexible working approach with no mandated return to office and we've trusted people and we've given them goals and parameters. And that is an absolutely essential element of any neurodiversity-inclusive organisation, as Alex has rightly pointed out. The one area where we're working on at the moment is manager guidance, and that's building on Jill's point and Alex's point. The importance of managers having an understanding about neurodiversity, neurodiversity-inclusion and being able to know where to go for accommodations and adjustments. And my experience is managers are very welcome to any education awareness about this subject, and keen to be involved in help. And that occupational health process I talked about, has led to many productive associations between manager and employee, as the manager understands better the person's neurodiversity and how they can plan accommodations and adjustments.
NC: I mean, Jill Miller, this still comes down to the role of the people manager. I mean, if you know your people as individuals, surely you should be picking up a lot of these things. Why is it we need a process?
JM: For many organisations, neurodiversity isn't on their radar. I think it is an integral part of equality, diversity and inclusion. And I think a real starting point here is this real concerted effort to raise awareness, not just of neurodiversity, but of the value of neurodiversity to the business. I think that's the really important point. Then, as I mentioned before, we need to be looking at our people management style. We need to be looking at, as Kevin said, how we bring people into the business. And I think that starts at looking at things like how we make job descriptions.
NC: All right. Well, let's just take that as an example, what's wrong with the way that jobs are advertised?
JM: Well, I think, when we're creating job descriptions, I think there's a tendency to be reusing past job descriptions without really thinking about what's needed for a particular role, and what are the real strengths and capabilities needed? And I think, often they become this long list of skills and capabilities that we'd love somebody to have when they come into the business. But essentially, that could be leading us to hire generalists, and could be inadvertently excluding people with real narrower strengths or deep level expertise in certain areas.
NC: But when you say excluding people, you mean that somebody would look at that list of requirements and not bother to apply?
JM: Yeah, I think so. I think some people may look at a long list and think if we can't tick all of the aspects of it, then maybe this job isn't for us. So, I think it is really important to be thinking about what's integral to the role when we're writing a job description, even to, sort of, put it into two sections of "must haves" and "nice to haves", sort of skills and capabilities. And I think this could really sort of help to widen the talent pool that we're attracting from.
NC: Alex Hirst, does this resonate with the kind of work you do with the company?
AH: It does resonate, yes. And I'm thinking about the example that Kevin gave earlier about the individual who solved the coding challenge that people were struggling with. And it sounded to me like that person had a really clear brief, really understood the parameters of what was required and was able to deliver against it very easily. And I think that's where job descriptions invariably don't appeal to neurodivergent people in that, as Jill was saying, they've become vague and lack that clarity. But I think also, as Jill was saying, we should look at the value of neurodiversity, in terms of having different ways of thinking within our organisations. And that's what we think of as cognitive diversity, which is to say, if you have lots of people who look, think, talk and act the same, you get lots of agreement, and you get what's known as "group think". And you know, when we think about the value to business, we always talk to our clients about what's the cognitive diversity of your organisation like? How differently are your people thinking, how much disagreement are you getting as a result? How are you harnessing those differences of opinion, to arrive at better solutions? Because that's where your business is more intelligent, collectively, and where you are going to make greater gains.
NC: And while we're with you, Alex, I mean, this can make communication slightly complicated. I mean, I did see some advice for managers on working with neurodivergent people. It said "some people don't get humour or sarcasm, so don't use that. Others are fazed by open questions. So, don't ever ask an open question". I mean, surely you can't tailor all your communication to suit everybody. I mean, business will be quite dull if you did, but equally I can see that some people might miss out. You know, we've all worked for a sarcastic boss, haven't we?
AH: Yeah, and we've all tried sarcasm as a sense of humour. I think that we're on a very fast learning journey here, about how to evolve the way that we communicate, and what a lot of people are trying to unlearn things like corporate jargon that have really clouded the way people communicate in the workplace, particularly. So, you know, a step back to more clarity in the way we communicate, I think, can only be a good thing. For a lot of us who don't understand the acronyms and the turns of phrase that we hear sometimes at work. So, I think this is more about going back to basics a little bit, being clearer about what we expect of one another, what our goals are, and taking the time to just articulate that properly. That's where I think there's opportunity and where, as managers, we can invest a little bit more time to get a better return.
NC: Okay, so we've almost got to the end of our time here, perhaps a passing thought from each of you on what struck you about the best routes to, kind of, measurable progress on this? So, let's start with Jill. I mean, what should you do next? And how do you know your strategy is starting to work?
JM: So, from our research, we know that flexible working, providing access to clear and reasonable adjustments can really make a significant difference to people's working experiences. And we've been talking about those things quite a lot already. But one thing I'd like to add here is that adjustments that we know benefit neurodivergent people to perform at their best at work, are also often welcomed by many different people for many different reasons. I think a lot of what we're talking about with neuro-inclusion just makes good business sense. It helps people to perform at their best, it involves listening to the individual, and responding to individual needs, as well as doing things across the workplace as a whole to make our workplaces more accessible and more inclusive.
NC: Great, and Kevin, how would you sum up what you've tried to do in your work?
KL: I think, support Jill's point really, that every organisation wants to get the best out of their people. Every organisation wants to recruit the best people, I think every CEO says that "we recruit the best people". No CEO says, "we recruit average or not so great people". So, I think we're looking to get the very best out of the people that we employ, of which we know one in five are neurodivergent, in virtually every organisation, and we're also looking to recruit the very best people. So, having as wide an approach in terms of recruitment, bringing in as many neurodivergent people into your organisation is going to benefit the organisation. I think, as a build as well, I'd say that those adjustments and accommodations that an organisation has made, and the one that I worked for has made, you start to see a greater awareness, an understanding of neurodiversity-inclusion, and you see a benefit around employee experience as well. And I think it's a journey, and you keep working on it. I've talked about manager guidance as being something I want to do where I'm working at the moment, but it's also an ongoing journey. And we have talked about flexible working, and that's an ongoing journey and debate. So, we keep trying to make the improvements, but it will, in time, benefit all organisations in terms of productivity, in terms of insights, in terms of employee experience.
NC: And Alex Hirst?
AH: Yeah, I do agree. I think that neuro-inclusion is the, probably the fastest step to inclusion more broadly, in terms of the way we work, given that so much of the work we do now is with our brains. And if, as organisations, we want brain power, then we need to change the way that we work in order to increase our access to that brain power and increase our collective intelligence. And for me, that means letting go of the outdated principles of place-based, time-based working and adopting new digital age methods, like we do at Hoxby, work style. Giving people choice and independence to define their own work style really is the thing that we feel passionately about, because it breaks down the stigma of someone being different or requiring something different to someone else. We're actually trying to normalise the idea of individuality, because that will get us there quicker.
KL: Yeah, I totally support what Alex is saying. And I think the more flexible and the wider you look at the employment of people, and then you're going to have a better environment to enable you to be the best business, because neurodivergent people can invariably see things that maybe other people can't see, for example, or they may have a view, which may be a brilliant game-changer for the organisation but everybody else has been unable to see it.
JM: This is about recruiting really talented and skilled people into the organisation. It's about expanding that talent pool that you're recruiting from. We know organisations are having difficulties recruiting and filling vacancies. I think neuro-inclusion offers huge opportunities here. But this is also about retention. I think people are more likely to stay for an organisation, stay with an organisation where they feel included, they feel they're treated fairly. Because in our survey, we found that a fifth of neurodivergent employees we surveyed said their experience at work in relation to their neurodivergence had a negative impact on their intention to stay. And so, I think that's quite a poignant point there.
NC: Good point to end on. Well, thanks very much indeed to Kevin Lyons from Pearson, Alex Hirst from Hoxby and CIPD's Jill Miller. There's some great resources to be found on the CIPD website, including some newly published guidance and principles, working with Uptimize to help in creating a neuro-inclusive organisation. And our usual reminder, so you never miss an edition. You can subscribe for free wherever you usually get your podcasts. But until next month, from me Nigel Cassidy and from the whole team, it's goodbye.
