Nigel Cassidy: So, what do we need to make the best use of our people? Data. Absolutely, but how do we use it wisely to build more productive and fairer workplaces? I'm Nigel Cassidy and this is the CIPD Podcast. Now, the best-performing organisations understand their people and what they're capable of, and ever more, do that by amassing a lot of information on staff performance, engagement, and much more. But being data-driven is easier said than done. I mean, how do you know what data to capture and what to do with it to boost productivity and make a difference in key areas like recruitment and retention? And how do you get more confident in handling people data, and where possible, make it accessible so all employees can use it to make better decisions? Well, joining me this month is a chartered CIPD fellow with long HR experience across a number of sectors and now developing practical solutions to people challenges. She's Director of People Consulting at Grant Thornton, Katie Nightingale. Hello.
Katie Nightingale: Good morning.
NC: And we've a computer science and human resources graduate who started her career in the private sector, developing a deep interest in how the people profession can contribute to good work through technology. It's public policy and HR practice senior advisor, Technology and Analytics. Hi, Hayfa Mohdzaini, Hello.
Hayfa Mohdzaini: Hello.
NC: So, Hayfa, let's be crystal clear what we're talking about here. I mean, in simple terms, what are people analytics? Because you get these other terms, don't you? People data, people metrics. Are they interchangeable? Do they mean exactly the same thing?
HM: So, in simple terms, Nigel, people analytics is about solving business problems using people data. And what we mean by people data is literally what it says on the tin. Data about people. This could be, for example, how long you've worked in the company, your performance rating, for example, and perhaps your demographics, your gender, and so on. So, what we mean by people metrics on the other hand is these are measurements of the people data. So, examples would be your turnover data, absence levels, your average performance rating.
NC: So, Katie Nightingale, give us an example of the current landscape. What would you say are the main areas where organizations are currently using this kind of data to just try and improve their performance?
KN: Yeah, I mean, we're used to seeing, you know, the standard stuff around data. So, attrition, maybe hiring rates and things. But I think organizations are seeing the benefit of capturing more data, rich data around people to support the business, to innovate a bit more around what's going on, and actually really focus where they're spending their time and money to increase the performance of people, to increase the experience of people as well. So, we're seeing much more data gathering around different demographics to make sure that there is much more inclusion in organizations. But also, how do we make sure that, in this more hybrid world, that we are understanding that people are getting the right engagement in a remote way, that they're actually getting, you know, the performance levels based on output. So, there's a lot more intricacies around the data that's required and how that is then shared as an organization to make the best decisions.
NC: OK. And we can go a bit more deeply into some of the potential areas in a minute. But Hayfa, do we actually know that strong people analytics do lead to improved outcomes? I mean, has the CIPD got any findings on this?
HM: Good people analytics can help you hone in on where you target your HR initiatives so that way you don't waste time on things that don't really matter.
KN: You know, the thing is, we're seeing a lot more around, you know, data helping us understand, you know, what's the connection and the correlation between capturing people data and the input on the bottom line for organizations. If you look at that correlation with organizations around profitability of when you know, you're actually seeing greater engagement, you do see a positive correlation. So, I think, you know, in terms of kind of that empirical evidence, that evidence out in business capturing that data and making sure that people are doing some focused initiatives, we are seeing a positive improvement.
HM: If you have good data to make decisions, then you make more informed decisions, then you're not making decisions on gut feeling. Obviously, it's important to use relevant data, and that's where people normally fall over. And that's where we need to be careful about what metrics we choose. And what questions we ask in the first place.
NC: Well, that does bring up a really important issue, doesn't it, Katie? Many people, certainly some employees, would say people data has a dark side, doesn't it, when it's clumsily introduced, say, to monitor the productivity of people on minimum wages, for example, in warehouses. I could give you lots of other examples. I mean, one springs to mind that I saw recently of the boss of INEOS, Jim Ratcliffe, was complaining about a 20% drop in emails on a Friday when staff were working from home, clearly those people’s work was being monitored. I mean, he clearly thought that told him something about productivity, which I suppose it might have done, but it might not.
KN: I think it's really dangerous that people just look at one data source and suggest that people aren't working. So, a lot of people you'll find on a Friday use that as their administration date, which means you might see, again, a correlation with emails going down, but that doesn't mean to say productivity is going down. So, it's very dangerous if people take one source of data. You must look at multiple sources to then give you that richer picture around what's going on. And I think that's where organisations struggle and where you get a natural distrust around data because people are looking at just one or maybe two and making quite sweeping kind of conclusions around what that means.
NC: And I guess this is particularly dangerous if there's an algorithm of some kind been built in. So, people are seeing results, which actually, they're actually biased, and they don't know. They reflect their own biases.
KN: Absolutely. And I think we also have to be conscious that the work that we do across industry with HR functions and businesses is often, you know the data is only as good as the input that goes in there. And actually, making statements on just data you're getting from different sources, you've got to look at the broader data sets around the lived experience. And that's what I mean about different data sources, not just what you're grabbing from a spreadsheet somewhere. So, I think there's a lot more to be done around making sure that you've got a proper data strategy, you understand where you're pulling that data from, you understand how cleansed is that data, and making sure that you feel comfortable and confident that if you're putting those stats out, whether it's internally or more, kind of importantly externally, that you can stand behind that data and then make the right decisions because that can be really dangerous. And then again, it just breeds this distrust of kind of, decisions that are being made. If you're hanging it on certain data points.
HM: Yeah, just to add. So, the CIPD really calls for people professionals to be to do evidence-based practice. So, apart from expertise and other sources of data, do consider, scientific evidence, there's lots out there. And you can also look at the CIPD website, there's evidence reviews, bite-sized research, certainly around, there's a bit of tension when, especially Katie mentioned, around the move to remote working. That's a slight change in how people do work and therefore, there's tensions around how people's performance should be monitored. And certainly, we highlighted in the talk piece around what monitoring measures are acceptable when managing remote workers. We found that where it's not obvious why that monitoring measure is relevant and necessary. People question the value of it. So, for example, if you know, tracking billable tasks for clients is a normal practice, say in the accountancy firm, doing that at home is equally fine. But if that's something that was not practiced before, people might question the value of it.
NC: I was chatting to somebody the other day, Katie, who mentioned that her organization collected data every year on staff concerns, but never acted on it. And I mean, that sort of thing itself would undermine trust, wouldn't it?
KN: Oh, absolutely. And I think this is kind of what I mean about kind of having a data strategy. And that's not just kind of understanding the tools you're going to use, the data you're going to gather. But what are you going to do with that? And how are you going to engage with people around why you're capturing data, particularly when it becomes quite personal data? And if you think about diversity and asking people about, you know, their sexual orientation or, you know, their social background or ethnicity, they're very, very personal. And obviously through, you know, what we've seen historically is that, you know, where people have been discriminated and these are protected characteristics that people are very nervous about providing that because it may be used against them. So, if you just go out and ask individuals that you want the data without explaining why you're doing that, but then more importantly, saying we've captured it, this is what we've done with it. And this is how it's made a difference to the organisation and you as an individual, you know, you're either going to make that trust go down in negative points, if you like, rather than, you know, making sure that people really, truly understand why they should give you that information or their perception of how it feels to work in an organisation. So, having a proper strategy around how you're going to capture, use, communicate that data is really important. But I, again, I'm not seeing organisations do this in a really robust way.
NC: So, I wonder, Hayfa, have you got any tips or examples of best practice on how people who want to maybe step up their use of people analytics, but can do so in a way where people understand why this information is collected and it's collected in the right way, obviously compliant with GDPR, and that it will be useful to all in the organisation?
HM: So, I'm thinking about OK, practical things, think about what problems your organisation is facing. Focusing on performance, are we looking at the organisational performance or is it individual performance? So, what is the question we're trying to answer here? And then look at what data you have and then understand how easy it is to get that data. If it's difficult to get that data, is it time to perhaps update that reporting system? So, perhaps if you're looking at within your area of work, you know, time to hire, is that an easy metric to get through your HR system? And if not, is it time to get help to upgrade the report? Or actually get a different tool to make that data easy to extract for yourself?
NC: OK. Now, Katie, there's an evolution going on, isn't there, in how data is used to drive decision making, performance, and all that. We've mentioned some of the traditional areas it's used for. I mean, more on the positive side, where is this going? What sort of potential benefits are there out there?
KN: I think from, you know, in terms of, you know, the HR and people functions really coming to the table. When it's about providing the organisation with really rich data to enable decision making, you start to become a commercial business partner. And I think that's really important. And I think that what we're starting to see is where organisations are leading in this space, they have got that rich data. They're working with organisations to kind of understand what they need, how they use that data. And they really pull on a number of different skills. And I think, you know, the skills part of this, you know, HR functions traditionally do not have those kinds of like those management information skills, that data analytical skills. And it's just not a natural skill set. But we are starting to see, again, those leading organisations really lean into that, but work with the organisation to provide data in a timely manner, really kind of focus on the accuracy of that, think about the engagement and getting all of that data, both internally and externally, to do that benchmarking. And then again, make really laser focused decisions.
NC: And you've had things to say too about the behaviours affecting performance. been, you know, talking about those behaviours affecting performance. Absolutely. I mean, you know, if you don't focus in on, you know, how someone does something, which is the behaviours around that, if you don't focus on that and you just focus on the what, you're going to find that you're not going to get the best performance. So, and behaviours are quite difficult to measure. So, it's not an easy thing to kind of capture. But again, there’s a lot of things that HR functions can do to set the standards, the guidelines around what that looks like and then be able to measure proficiency against that and again it's that regular communication, having development interventions which are aligned to that. But again, you need the data to be able to tell you, well, what development do we need? Where should we invest that money? And if we don't do skills audits, which is gathering data, if we don't look at that and understand how to use that data, you're just going to be kind of like a bit of a scattergun approach or a finger in the air about what you should actually be doing.
KN: And that can be very wasteful and actually not give you the outcomes that you're looking for.
HM: Yeah, to expand what Katie mentioned, so it's about understanding the questions and being laser focused. And linked to that is also the skill around storytelling and co-creating that solution with your business leaders. And I think, certainly as a judge at the People Antics Best Initiatives at the People Management Awards, I noticed that the best companies do actually work together with their business leaders to get that buy-in and also to gain a real understanding what the problems they're trying to solve for.
NC: Does it require, Katie, a change of mindset once you are, I mean, everybody wants to say that they are data driven, but once you're really looking at this information to make your decisions, that maybe means that people need to shoot from the hit less and consult more. And that's easy to say, hard to do.
KN: Yeah, well, it's a balance, I think. I mean, you know, you have to be confident you've got the right data, as I sort of mentioned. But there is a skill in knowing how to read that data. And as Hayfa said, you know, that storytelling skill. So, when we kind of talk to organizations and we do a lot of work, whether it's with HR functions or finance functions, and that whole kind of piece around, there's a there's a technical data analytical piece that, you know, you may need specific people to do. But there's an understanding, even as a business partner who is using much more of what we would call power skills. So, those skills that will enable you to do your job really well. It's the how.
NC: Is that the same as soft skills? Power skills? I've heard that one before.
KN: Yeah, no, it's really interesting. So, the problem we find is that when we talk about soft skills, it doesn't give enough emphasis around the powerfulness of those skills, you know, communication and things. So, we're shifting that narrative to be these are power skills. They are true enablers in order for you to successfully execute those technical skills that you have. So, I think that's where we're going in the fact that, you know, you need to have a balance of those. And HR, you know, HR professionals, as we move forward, really need to grasp that. At least have an awareness and have an understanding about how they can really kind of, you know, utilize those skills. They don't have to be a data analytical expert. But I think it is where the evolution is, is that, you know, we can't have job descriptions for HR functions without something around data analytics and storytelling and data visualization.
NC: Absolutely. I love that. I thought I was too soft, but now I'm powerful. Hayfa people do find a lot of this quite scary. How do they get up to speed? How do they get a bit more confident in using more people analytics?
HM: Well, firstly, you can visit the TIPD website and read the people analytics guide for people professionals. Secondly, look at what people data that you have. And if it's quite difficult to extract the relevant data you need in your day-to-day business, think about how you can make that easier. Whether that means getting better reports, working with colleagues or doing it yourself, or getting external partners to help you improve your reports.
KN: I think to build on that, there is luckily now a new apprenticeship around HR data analytics, so, it's a data analytics apprenticeship but there are some that have been specifically focused in on HR professionals. So, there are actually qualifications now to build that. But I think, you know, notwithstanding, you know, there are those kinds of more qualifications and much more deeper dives. I think, you know, there are lots of sources out there around the best way to kind of capture data, what data to capture. You know, we do a lot of work with clients where they really are just starting out and (inaudible) I just don’t know, where to start. And actually, just engaging externally with the CIPD, with other organizations to kind of get that confidence because, you know, you're not alone. You know, lots of HR functions are going through this same thing, but actually there is a lot of kind of information about this. And it's been a topic that's been around for a while, but I don't think we're quite grasping it yet. But, you know, I think that, you know, yeah, just reach out, you know, just to start looking at where there's sources of whether it's kind of individuals that can support or actual kind of formal qualifications.
NC: And in fact, Katie, are there any kind of case studies that spring to mind of where you've been involved with bringing organizations up to speed with their data use?
KN: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so we do a lot of work around kind of HR function transformation and that absolutely means systems, data, you know, digital solutions. And so, we worked with a FTSE 100 organization. And, you know, the expectation is that organizations in that space are going to be very sophisticated when it comes to their practices and their data. That's often not the case. So, what we what we tend to do is kind of help them understand what that data strategy needs to look like for them. We help to understand the data they've got, where they are at the moment, what they need to capture, who they need to speak to, to do that. And also, how they can make best use of you know the different solutions they've got already rather than going oh, I've got to go and buy an expensive system to do this. Absolutely not. You can do it simply through Excel if you needed to. But having you know the right tools to do that. But I think the important thing is helping. It's a culture and a mindset shift. And it is scary, as you said, Nigel, for organizations and HR professionals to make that move. But you do it slowly. You put a plan together. You bring, you know, individuals along the journey, again, tapping into where you've got that expertise elsewhere in the organization. And slowly but surely, having a bit of a pathway that will get people to their ambition around data just feels a bit more manageable. So, that's what we tend to do is kind of really kind of handhold. Depending on where organizations are on that journey.
NC: Does HR tend to keep this stuff to themselves? I mean, we hear this term, the democratization of data. I mean, presumably you can't put all this information out publicly. But I mean, in many cases, if it's anonymized, you can provide access so people can use it to make better decisions themselves.
HM: There are certainly more opportunities for HR to share data in safe ways with the people who can act on them. And certainly, thinking about line managers. What kinds of data would be helpful for them in their day-to-day management? It's quite normal within the self-service environments for line managers to have data around absences, holidays, performance ratings, data around their team members. So, having that data is good but at the same time, you need to support line managers to know how to use that data because not everyone is data-savvy. So, helping them interpret the data and being able to use that strategically in their work would be really helpful as well in terms of support from business partners.
KN: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a nervousness with HR professionals around data and how you know how you capture it. Because of the data collection regulations, you know, there are very clear guidelines around what we can capture, how long you can keep that for, and how you then share that. And I think sometimes that can create some nervousness around really using it. So, this is where I go back to this data strategy around what you're collecting, how you're collecting, how you're storing it, and how you're sharing it. But again, you need to make sure that you understand the boundaries around that, making sure that you've really thought that through before you start to do anything. So, you act on it. So, I think in order to understand all that, that's where the confidence will go to. Say look, we understand how we're going to do this and we're going to make sure that it's really transparent about what we do. And then make sure we're really clear on how we're going to use it and follow that through. But I think there is that nervousness around getting it wrong, because, you know, clearly there's, you know, there are huge implications for that. Not only financial implications, but also reputational damage if you get that wrong. So, I think we have to kind of get comfort around that to be able to go, well, look, this can be really powerful. Don't be kind of like paralysed by the fact that there is, you know, clearly regulations and guidelines that need to be followed.
NC: So, Hayfa, how do you sort of signal to your employees that you are doing more of this? But this is the reason you’re doing it, and these are the potential benefits in terms of organisational performance.
HM: I think a classic example I can think of is around employee surveys. It's so easy to ask so many questions and people wonder whether any actions will be taken and how honest they should be in the answers. So, if you want to build that trust with employees, you do need to follow on through the actions that you said you would. So, you explain to employees, we need your answers on this because we need to understand how the organisation is feeling and what areas we need to work on. And then when you get that feedback, come back to them with the results and say, OK, these are the areas we're working on. This, you know, we've listened, and we've heard, and this is what we've done. And by establishing that rhythm, you create that trust over time and hopefully build that momentum for people to be more open with the area of work and together to improve organisational performance.
NC: Because in a way, Katie, this is a big change, isn't it? From just sort of reporting organisational data, collecting it and sort of using it in a small way to sort of enabling strategic decisions are way beyond HR.
KN: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and that's what I mean about kind of, you know, HR can really have that seat at the table to give that rich data for the business to make, you know, really informed decisions. You know, if we think about finance functions, you know, they use data all the time. The reporting, it's a given. I'm not suggesting that they're all, you know, innovative around their data. There's still, you know, skills and development there. But I think there's a lesson to be learned around you know how that can really inform decisions. And I think it's just really kind of working in partnership with, you know, our finance, you know, and our IT colleagues to be able to kind of move that forward and really think through the different things. I mean, one thing that I still see at the moment around that is so important, you know, there's a huge kind of war for talent as we talk through. But yet I don't see really, really robust strategic workforce planning going on. And you cannot do that without both internal and external data to inform how you're going to kind of, you know, grow those skills, buy those skills in. And that is a really powerful thing that, you know, HR teams and professionals can help the business with. So that, again, we're thinking in the future and we're saying, well, you know, we know we're going to get a skills gap. We've got these critical skills. How do we make sure that we've identified them, and we understand where we need to find these skills? And how are we going to develop them?
NC: And as far as the sort of productivity side of it, improving that, Hayfa, would you say there are any particular measures which do tend to have a good result when it comes to getting organisations to be more efficient, more productive?
HM: There's so many measures and it really depends on the business. Nigel. At organisation level, a popular metric is revenue per employee. Obviously, if you're a charity, that might be phrased slightly differently. Because, you know, speaking in terms of profit. At individual level, we are looking, you know, it would be customized on that individual, whether it's, you know, number of calls or whether it's, you know, number of widgets they produce. When it comes to knowledge work, there's more subjectivity and therefore perhaps less opportunity for automated analysis of that where people come in. And that's where, you know, you would still be relying on manager assessment. And also 360 assessments from colleagues. But even in those cases, you could have that facilitated collection of that information, you know, through a survey just to make things easier to collect, the data to collect and analyse.
NC: OK. And a final thought from you, perhaps, Katie, on making this work better.
KN: I think, like I say, I think, you know, the first thing is to just, is to really understand, you know, what is it that you're trying to achieve? What data do you actually need to inform decisions? What are some of the, I guess the boundaries you need to put around that? So, this is where I keep coming back to sit down and plan this before you start acting, look, get a data strategy. So, what is it you're trying to achieve? What's the data that you need to collect? What data do you actually have? What mechanisms do you have to collect that data? What do you need to think about around risks, and kind of, you know, any governance around that data, who needs to be involved in that? How do you need to communicate that? So, all of those things, and if you've got that plan together, that will make it much easier for you to understand what you need to do next. So, you know, where are the gaps in the data? What, you know, what tools do we need? And you can start to then really think that through, and then also overlaying, well, what skills do we need to enable us to do this effectively? So, sit down and do that planning. Just take a bit of an audit around what you're doing around data and what you have, you know, before you start kind of ploughing in and acting. And I think that that's that what we, we constantly say to organizations is think, plan, then do.
NC: Excellent. Well, thoughtful point to end on. Let me just thank our guests this month, that was Katie Nightingale from Grant Thornton and thanks to the CIPD's Hayfa Mohdzaini. On the technical side, some might just like to follow up some of these ideas with a listen back to one of our earlier podcasts, number 183, Building Inclusion with Computers. You can find that and all of our past editions on the CIPD podcast page on the website, and lots of CIPD information on this topic too. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, but until next time from me, Nigel Cassidy, and all of us at CIPD, it's goodbye.
