Nigel Cassidy (NC): Can't find work-ready recruits for love or money? It's time to offer more apprenticeships. I'm Nigel Cassidy and this is the CIPD Podcast. With so many employers telling the CIPD their talent pipelines run dry, you'd think they'd jump at bridging the gap by growing their own, combining tailored on-the-job training with classroom learning. Yet small firms are offering half the number of apprenticeships as a decade ago, large firms a third less. And CIPD research has found just 6% of 16 to 24-year-olds take up apprenticeships. So, what's going on? I mean, we know potential entrants still may see apprenticeships as low status, rather poorly paid routes into employment. But I wonder, are apprenticeships also stigmatised by employers, concerned over everything from inadequate funding to their leadership obligations? Maybe they're waiting for imminent government scheme changes, or just blissfully unaware of the potential. Which is where we come in, because with me are a trio with hands-on experience of getting organisational value from apprenticeships.
Our first guest has quite the track record of bringing in complex apprenticeship programmes as part of her strategic role as Head of Early Careers at Virgin Media O2. It's Karen Handley.
Next, a CIPD fellow at one of the UK's largest employers of all, with a workforce of over 40,000 and 800 apprentices, in everything from engineering to finance. It's Network Rail's Director of Learning and Organisational Development, Sinead Trudgill.
Sinead Trudgill (ST): Hi Nigel, how are you?
NC: With us, another CIPD fellow, Andrea Gordon. In her last director role, she saw through big changes at the Housing Association Peabody, where she launched an apprenticeship academy. She was also recognised as one of HR's most influential practitioners for 2024. An influencer who's presumably not on TikTok all the time. That's a novelty.
Andrea Gordon (AG): Hi Nigel, how are you?
NC: Perhaps she is on TikTok all the time, who knows. Now, let's get on to why apprenticeship schemes might be flagging and what to do about it in a moment. But I wonder if we could just start with the case for apprenticeships as a means of growing and moulding those work-ready people that we know are so needed. It would be great to hear from each of you just what apprenticeship schemes deliver for you in terms of finding and keeping engaged.
ST: I think for us, the railway is 200 years old this year, so we're celebrating that. And we've got a huge legacy of apprenticeships in our organisation, whether that be mechanical operations apprenticeships, telecommunications, is something we're also sort of, because of our signalling and complexity of our infrastructure. We're in a place at the moment in Network Rail where we have to operate old technology because of the legacy, but equally, we also have new technologies emerging in our organisation as well. So, those 800 apprenticeships are made up of people in work already and actually developing their careers and moving through the various apprenticeships levy. But recently, in the last six months, we've actually developed an apprenticeship for people not in education at the moment and working with some of the local colleges as well to try and get them into work as well. And we're starting to get some success and interest in that as well. But for us, it's such a huge, important part of our growth in our organisation because it takes a long time to learn how to operate the railway effectively. And I'm proud of the fact that we have people in senior exec roles in our business who've started there. So, we've got really great precedent, people starting this apprenticeship level in the organisation and have moved up through the ranks into key leadership roles for the industry. So, I would actually challenge anybody to say that the apprenticeship is not the best approach possible and a way of learning.
NC: OK. So, Andrea Gordon, housing association, rather different to a national railway, but how does it all work for you?
AG: So, we've had really good success at Peabody. As you mentioned, I established an apprenticeship academy at Peabody, so an Ofsted-regulated academy. And that's enabled us to really, I guess, think about our workforce planning strategy a little bit better. We had gone through a merger with another housing association. We had a new operating model in place and we really wanted to take a different approach to the way we work. So, having the apprenticeship academy and bringing new people into the organisation, but actually also using the academy to deliver apprenticeships to our existing employees meant that we could really tailor the apprenticeship framework to what we needed as a business. And then equally, I think, well, when I was at the Olympic Park, you know, a slightly different model there. I hadn't set up an academy. We didn't have that framework, but we worked really closely with, you know, our construction partners, our local operators to make sure that they were taking apprenticeships through the local communities, so people that lived on and around the Olympic Park.
So, huge benefits for local communities, people who may not have got the right qualifications, to go to university, to go straight into a role. They may not even have that confidence or experience to get into, you know, a job or be learning at the same time. So, I think it's shown huge benefits for both roles I've had at the Olympic Park and at Peabody. And we've been able to really plan out our sort of workforce recruitment and retention strategies much better at Peabody through bringing apprenticeships into the university, to roles, and supporting them through that process.
NC: OK. Well, let's see also how it works for Karen. You bring on a lot of young people at Virgin Media O2. Why is that better for you than just recruiting?
Karen Handley (KH): It predominantly gives us an access to a wider talent pool. We generate over 10,000 applications just for our apprenticeship programme alone, because we're tapping into those people focused on potential rather than those with prior experience. So, for us it really helps Virgin Media O2 with our goals to ensure we get more females and more global majority into our organisation. So, over the last five years, over a third of our apprentices have been females and from a global majority, which has seen a real benefit to our overall talent goals.
We also find year on year our apprentices are amongst our highest engaged cohorts across the organisation and always hit the UK high performing norms. So, we've got a lot of really engaged, really diverse organisation. And they also stay with us. So, a third of our class of 2008 are still with us today in technical roles. Some have moved to manager roles, some have moved to leader roles. So, it really emphasises that leadership pipeline. And I think it's also about giving back to society. I think similar to the other points is around, it's so difficult sometimes to sort of break into a career if you haven't got that experience. We hire purely on strengths and potentials. So, we don't ask for CVs. We don't ask for prior experience because we want to give people the opportunity to have some diverse thinking in our organisation without the preconceived needs of having to have lots of experience and qualifications. So, for us, it creates those tangible benefits as well as giving those individuals the opportunity to get started in their career, but also for those people that may want to reskill. We've had individuals that, especially during from the pandemic, where people have reflected on their career and decided they've wanted to change. We've had people that have been chefs, for example, that have wanted to become sales engineers. We've had people that have been dancers that want to become network engineers.
So, it gives a real breadth to those starting in their career, as well as those that may want to reskill in that career for us. So, we've had multiple benefits for our programme.
NC: And for those employers who might be sceptical about whether all this is worth the effort, I wonder, for example, Andrea and Sinead, is there any evidence that you do take on stay longer? Because of course, there is this terrible failure rate with apprenticeships, something like 50% of people dropout before they finish.
AG: I think, yeah, I agree with Karen. We have seen, obviously, the scale of our apprenticeships in Peabody is nowhere near the size of Virgin Media, but we have definitely seen that those coming in as apprentices have stayed longer. They've worked their way up the organisation into senior roles. I think you do, you get some dropout rates, but I think if you have the right mentoring support, the right sort of pastoral care within your organisation to really support those apprentices, then they will stay. Just having that, I guess, future vision for them, if they can see a really clear career pathway, that means, you know, they're coming in as, for example, an HR assistant and they can see how they can get to be a HR business partner. It really helps to motivate them through their apprenticeship. But having that pastoral care and that mentoring part as well really means that you get those good retention rates.
ST: Yeah, and similar with us as well, where we were last reported on this some time ago, but 74% of our apprentices are with the organisation some 10 years after joining the organisation, which is an accreditation itself, isn't it? And actually, we need to look at the National Apprenticeship Achievement because across all sectors in the UK, we know that 54.6% of all sectors actually retain their apprentices in their business. So, that's a phenomenal figure and worth celebrating for the world of apprenticeships, I think.
NC: OK, so that all sounds good, but employers clearly aren't setting up schemes and there is this slight stigma maybe young people would feel. So, I wonder, what's going wrong? Why aren't other organisations sharing this success?
AG: From my experience, and you mentioned earlier Nigel, you know, small organisations and large organisations and the percentage of apprenticeships and how that's sort of reduced over time. I think particularly in smaller organisations, apprenticeships are still very misunderstood. I don't think you have the perhaps skill and expertise within smaller organisations. You know, somebody like yourself, Karen, who will know the ins and outs of apprenticeship frameworks and learning and development and yourself, Sinead, at that level. So, I think if you’re a small organisation you don’t fully understand what you can do with the apprenticeship levy, for example. And the actual sort of breadth of apprenticeships available. And again, you know, we spoke about entry-level apprenticeships. And if I just touch quickly on levy, you can use your apprenticeship levy for different things. You know, you could use it for an MBA as well.
NC: Now, this is a specific scheme in England and there are allowances available throughout the UK. It may be different in other countries, but essentially a lot of employers might see this as a tax. If they don't use it, maybe they don't understand it even.
AG: Yeah, I think they don't. I think they don't understand what you can use it for, what the breadth of apprenticeship offerings is out there. I don't think people necessarily understand what their options are in terms of partnering with organisations to deliver apprenticeships. And so, I think that's part of the problem. I think the other part of the problem is, again, this misconception that, you know, apprentices take up a lot of time, time that perhaps people don't have in the faster paced world of work these days. But again, I think that's a little bit naive in thinking, you know, you have to invest in any employee in an organisation and apprenticeship programmes are so good now that there is more flexibility, there is more agility in how they're delivered. And, you know, it's a long-term investment. I think people need to start seeing it as that rather than a short-term, you know, something that's going to take up time and resource.
NC: That's perhaps a big ask in the current economic climate. And I can understand why, say, the railways might have that slightly longer term view, notwithstanding all the changes in the industry than a commercial organisation under a lot of pressure. But let's look at the nuts and bolts of this, starting with Karen. I mean, the form of apprenticeships is going to vary enormously within an organisation. And then just the three of you are very different setups. But I wonder whether we can sort of break this down to the principles. What would you say a successful apprenticeship programme really should consist of? What are the elements Karen?
KH: For Virgin Media O2, I think one of the key elements we focus on, I guess, is to start with is that workforce plan. So, what are the skills that are needed by the organisation for now and the future? And I think building on those previous points, whether you're a small organisation or a large organisation, there's still points you should be thinking about. And then in addition to that, it's looking at that skills and then looking at the market and seeing, are those skills readily available to now? Or is it something where you need to invest in those people to make sure that they are skilled for the future? And that's where apprenticeships are a brilliant solution because they're a tailor-made scheme that really sort of brings together the very up to date academic learning in terms of that particular skill set, as well as the practical application straight away in the programme. I think it's also looking at the funding and the finance available. So again, whether you are in England, it's the levy or whether in evolved nations and their funding models is really understanding what can you tap into from a funding point of view and what do you have to finance yourself? So, for example, the salary cost and those kind of costs needs to be taken into a consideration. There's lots of support for employees in terms of training provision. So, working with apprenticeships, you work with a training provider and they have all the insight to be able to either help you recruit those apprentices we recruit our own, but they're able to help with that. They help with identifying the right apprenticeship for that organisation.
So, there's lots of support around getting set up with that scheme and especially if you're particularly maybe a smaller organisation that perhaps doesn't have a team like a Virgin Media O2 does, where we've got a dedicated team that can manage all that ourselves. And I think it is just thinking through that commitment. So, overall, is there that buy-in from the leadership community around wanting to invest? I think that is probably the most key point that if you've got that buy-in to recognise the need to invest, then I think that's a really great starting point to then sort of navigate and signpost to lots of resources that the government and associations can provide to get organisations set up.
NC: Yeah, a lot of sense there. So, taking that on, Sinead, I know you're very much involved in planning, design, development. How do you, kind of using that as a basis, how do you then set about ensuring you're actually delivering something which is meeting your needs?
ST: Like Karen, we first protocol is always our strategic workforce plan. What do we need and when do we need it for? What kind of business scenario are we looking to put in place there as well? So, the maturity of your strategic workforce plan is really key. But also, we talked about what's the experience you're going to give the people? How do you onboard them? How do you bring them on the journey? You know, we do a lot of work in communities with early engagement and STEM. You know, I've reached schools and colleges, etc., to get people on board and bring them into our organisation so they know what they're going to experience.
NC: I mean, commitment to going out into the community and finding people is, again, it's a big undertaking. I'm just wondering whether you do it out of a sense of the right thing and duty or whether you are actually finding people who will make a long-term contribution to the railways who might not have thought of applying for an apprenticeship, say.
ST: Yeah, we've actually and also, we're actually also seeing, and I guess this is the same with Andrea and Karen as well, is actually we're now seeing a choice where people are actually choosing apprenticeships above going to university because of the financial impact that will have on their families and they actually say this to us. You know, we live in a very different society nowadays where going to university is not an option for everybody because of the cost associated and the impact on families. So, we are getting evidence of that, of people coming through to us. And equally, we are getting more females to join our business as well as a result of it. And we're really actively reaching into black, Asian, ethnic minority groups as well to come in and actually be within our community, to sort of to join the railway as well as a younger age. But it's actually how you land on these people into the organisation as well. And why we've got 74%. I would suggest is because we really provide great mentorship for those people and create that career journey for them as well. And I think, you know, from what I've heard, Karen is saying it’s the same and Andrea as well. It's really important to provide a good landing for people and apprenticeships.
NC: A landing. What's that?
ST: A good landing. So, they feel the culture. They land in a good culture. They want to be there. They see the career journey happening for them, they see a progression for themselves as well and they can understand it. You know, a lot of our apprenticeships would turn up on day one and ask me what are you earning? You know, so you need to be really honest with them and tell them where you come from and what you earn, you know. They're very challenging, they tell you what they want, and they're not shy in coming forward.
NC: Yeah, sorry, slightly off the idea of the railways would use the expression, landing, which sounds a lot like airplanes, but I absolutely get what you're saying. Andrea Gordon, I mean, you mentioned this work that you did at Peabody where you actually went to the trouble of setting up an academy with a principal and the whole the sort of mini infrastructure to put your apprentices in, that wouldn't be for everybody, but what were the particular benefits because I know there weren't very many apprenticeships when you started off on that journey?
AG: Yeah, so we set up the Peabody Academy during the merger so during merger with Catalyst Housing Association, As I mentioned earlier one of the reasons for that was we moved to a different operating model, we wanted a different way of working the professionalisation of housing is coming down the line and we wanted to get a little bit ahead of the game, making sure that for example our neighbourhood managers were fully qualified, they were thinking about things a little bit differently in the way that they operated. So, that was one of the reasons and I think the other reason we mentioned funding, whether that's levy or funding of a different nature, we weren't making best use of our apprenticeship levy.
So, we were losing quite a bit of money per month just through not utilising it, so we worked with the Department of Education to set up the academy which became an Ofsted-regulated employer provider, so that means that we can provide apprenticeships to employees of Peabody and its associated subsidiaries. And then once you go through your first Ofsted inspection, and obviously as long as that's good, then you can apply to become a main provider and that means that you then can become a profit-making entity and provide apprenticeships to other organisations.
NC: Can I ask you, did you get a sharp intake of breath from senior management when you said, I want to start an Academy?
AG: No, everybody was really onboard with it actually. Perhaps only concerns if any were about getting it right and making sure that because you know, we're already a heavily regulated sector, we would be regulated by Ofsted. You know, we needed to make sure that we got things right, got the right people in place, made sure we got the right policies and practices in place as well. And I had worked in an FE environment previously. So, I did have some understanding already of apprenticeships. But I think the other thing that really, I guess supported our journey was the flexibility it gave us in delivering those apprenticeships. As you say, Nigel, this is not going to be for everybody, but there might be people listening to this who have an organisation where they think this might work for them. It gives you more flexibility in the way you deliver them, so if you're an employer or provider, for example, some of your off-the-job learning could be done through a team meeting or an away day or part of your induction programme. So, for us at that period in time it gave us much more flexibility to a make sure that the people that in the future would need to be professionally qualified were getting ahead of the game and be it you know, internally we had that pipeline of colleagues who we could develop and support for future formations.
NC: I can see Karen this way of solving this problem which I know puts some employers off, that your apprenticeships spend what 20% of their time in the classroom while somehow learning and they're off the job, you have to backfill for them, and that's a that's a big time off work for somebody who you're paying a salary to.
KH: So, for us it's about the opportunity it provides, the whole reason for apprenticeships is it's an investment in those skill sets because we focus on potential, so we're all about finding somebody with the skills and the strengths, the idea is that you know that's why we don't ask for CVs or experience because you bring your potential, we need these strengths and skills and we'll take care of the rest which is around giving you that training to do your role. So, that that for us is very much part of our offering and that is expected and we don't find it an issue at Virgin Media O2, it's carefully planned out because it's a mix of academic learning and then application back on the job it works really well for us in the sense that they're able to bring that new fresh thinking back into those teams, deploy it relatively quickly and so that whole time of that apprenticeship, they are in a real role, they're getting hands-on experience, they're in that real role the whole time, they're on that apprenticeship from day one and their capability just increases day by day until they complete their apprenticeship, And we see it's so much an investment that they're on permanent contracts with us, and we're very upfront around what their starting salaries are, what they're going to be, their salary is going to be when they complete their programme. So, we fully want to be transparent and showcase that journey of that apprentice not only to the apprentices but everyone in the organisation.
NC: And all this change in the air, Sinead, in the UK at least. New foundation schemes possibly at a more basic level maybe cutting off level Seven apprenticeships for more experienced workers because that's quite controversial isn't it? The way that money is often used for more senior people, and indeed shorter apprenticeships which many people might welcome but overall, it's quite a mixed bag isn't it?
ST: Yeah, I think it's really sad actually because you know Andrea, you were talking earlier about people swapping over careers, you know by virtue of the fact that you're removing that ability for people then you're cutting the workforce short in terms of re-skilling people and that opportunity that different levels provide particularly in work apprenticeships as well, so it’s hard for people to transfer to new skills. And particularly we know, we know in the UK that and in the world of work, it is changing for people and so they need to keep fresh and develop etc. and apprenticeships particularly sort of around level seven are real opportunities for people to really self-actualise and learn whilst working as well. So, how are you going to get people to do that, I would suggest you remove the level seven.
KH: I think to that point as well, people are working longer so one in six people are going to be 60+ by 2030. So, non-linear careers are on the rise, so it’s really important to sort of recognise that people are working longer now. For Virgin Media O2, we’re actually welcoming the levy review, so again appreciate this is England only. We’ve invested in apprentices for years, a bit similar to Network Rail and actually some of the conversations around the points you’ve mentioned Nigel, around the flexibility, the shorter apprenticeships is brilliant for organisations to give employers that ability to be able to ensure it's the right flexibility for our needs. Because some are very, very different apprenticeships, some did need to be longer, some needed to be shorter, etc. But I think it's important that the government recognises that businesses know best, they know their own skills that they need, and I think it's important to ensure those changes do have the voice of employers in them because we're the ones that have to train those specific skills that will benefit organisations like ourselves but for society overall.
NC: OK, well let's just try and draw this together a little. I mentioned earlier, I mean all this requires long-term workforce planning and thinking which maybe some might feel is rather lacking the confidence certainly in much of today's business. So, Andrea what do you think would be the best moves within an organisation to ensure that more apprenticeships do play their part in building the workforce of the future?
AG: Yeah, I think Karen touched on this earlier it is about that workforce planning piece. So, looking at what skills you need now and what skills you need for the future. And of course, you know the learning and development like everything else is all about budgets and what funding you can get and really understanding how you can make best use of those, because if you can use something like the levy for example, or a different type of funding if you're in Scotland or Wales or wherever you may be, then you can offset some of your other learning and development budget for something else for another programme, maybe an EDI programme. So, I really think it's about assessing what skills you need now, what skills you need in the future, you know and it sounds like both Karen and Sinead have got this absolutely nailed. But having that real like EVP, that attraction around apprenticeships and full-time apprenticeships, and before you value proposition it’s having you know, why do you want to come and work at Virgin? Why do you want to come and work in the rail sector? Really telling those stories about apprentices and how they've progressed through the organisation, and it's all about getting that narrative out there so, more and more people understand the benefit of apprenticeships.
NC: And Sinead Trudgill, I was struck by something you said to me when we chatted beforehand about what apprentices Bring them to an organisation because we do tend to think of them as coming in to learn,
ST: Yeah. OK. And I also think that we can learn from them as well, you know.
NC: So, what can we learn?
ST: We can learn, you know, new ways of thinking, how they're utilising their own tech and their own worlds themselves at the moment. And they can actually get other people to think about new ways of working and they bring a fresh sort of perspective to the organisation as well. I think that's really important, but it's also about keeping the organisation fresh. I think that they bring a new dynamic to teams, particularly when some teams are actually quite formed for periods of time. And a new person coming in is a great, you know, asset to the thoughts of actually how those teams operate.
NC: Diversity of thought must be a good thing. And finally, a thought from you, Karen.
KH: So, for us, yeah, it's really important that everyone sees the value of apprenticeships. I do think something we haven't touched on is around that piece of the misconceptions around apprenticeships. So, yes, from a business point of view, we can talk about the benefits, but I think sometimes there is that misconception, whether it's from individuals, parents, or employers, around what apprenticeships are and what they're not. So, for example, the view that perhaps it's only for people that don't particularly do well at school, whereas for us, we've got people that have come in with no GCSEs, but we also have people in our apprenticeships that have got degrees and A-levels. It's a real mix. And it's that confidence around those individuals that they can bring to the organisation rather than labelling them by qualification. I mean, there's also the, the misconception around perhaps what those apprenticeships cover. So, there's so many apprenticeships in the market. You know, we've offered over 30 different types of apprenticeships across multiple roles. So, there you can, whatever you think of, there is probably an apprenticeship in it for whatever skillset you've got as an organisation. And I think the other thing is around, it's only for young people. So, although yes, there's been this drop in young people, I think it's also the recognition that, you know, apprenticeships are for everyone now coming back to that point around, you know, non-linear careers. I think skills have become more centre stage. I think people's values are changing in terms of how and the way they work. And I think it's important to recognise that coming back to Sinead's point around different ways of sort of thinking, you really want to be able to, as you, as you get into new generations coming into the workplace, make sure you're staying ahead of what those trends are in, in future generations but recognising that it's not only young people that can do that.
It's also people that do want to change careers. We've got people typically aged between about 18 and 53-years-old on our programme with over half, over 25, because so many people want to reskill now. So, I think some of those pieces, getting that education out there, coupled with the benefits of apprenticeships in that wider sense of the diversity and engagement and those points will really showcase to people that the impact that apprenticeships can make in an organisation.
NC: Brilliant. Well, three cheers for apprenticeships. They've been around since 1563. So, let's hope your words are heeded and they have a strong role to play in the future. Many thanks to Karen Handley from Virgin Media O2, HR consultant, Andrea Gordon and Sinead Trudgill, Network Rail’s Director of Learning and Organisational Development. Just to mention, we've been exploring one route into work in this episode, but if you are a CIPD student member listening to this, you can grab a free ticket to the CIPD student conference on 8th March. So, do check the episode show notes for more information. You'll also find useful content on apprenticeships on the CIPD website. But for now, from me, Nigel Cassidy, until next month from the CIPD, it's goodbye.
